(Witness: Pinchot.)

Mr. PINCHOT. Yes; there have been protests against the creation of forest reserves for very many different reasons, and there have been of late years very many more petitions for the creation of reserves than protests against them.

The CHAIRMAN. How many homestead entries have you included in forest reserves?

Mr. PINCHOT. That question could be answered only after months of research in the general and local land offices. There are very large numbers of homestead entries in forest reserves, and I hope there will be very many more, for it is a fundamental principle of the Forest Service in all this matter that the land shall be put to its best use. Whatever land we may have in any forest reserves that will be more useful for agriculture than it will be as a part of the forest reserve we want to have used for that purpose.

The CHAIRMAN. Does not the reservation for forestry purposes in some way impair the value of the homestead entry?

Mr. PINCHOT. It has been often said that by preventing the development of the surrounding lands and the increase of settlement a forest reserve cuts down the value of the homestead entry. That would be true if the premises upon which the argument is based were also true. As a matter of fact, the act of June 11, 1906, provides the means by which any agricultural land in any forest reserve can be located for a home upon a showing that it is agricultural in its character.

The CHAIRMAN. When located for a home under those circumstances do they take it outside the restrictions of the Forest Service? Mr. PINCHOT. There are no restrictions upon any such location made in the forest reserves.

The CHAIRMAN. Are we to understand that a man can locate his homestead in a forest reserve and can handle the homestead in accordance with his own judgment in relation to the preservation of the forest thereon?

Mr. PINCHOT. Absolutely.

The CHAIRMAN. Unhindered by the Forest Service?

Mr. PINCHOT. The Service has no more control over a man's entry than it has over the Capitol grounds.

The CHAIRMAN. Has it not a control over the manner in which he uses his entry after he has it made?

Mr. PINCHOT. Not a bit.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you mean to say if a homestead entry is included in a forest reserve that that does not impair the right of the homesteader to develop it in any way?

Mr. PINCHOT. He can develop it in any way whatsoever. He has precisely the same rights that he would have if there was no forest

reserve.

The CHAIRMAN. And he can destroy the forest on his entry?
Mr. PINCHOт. He can do just what he likes.

The CHAIRMAN. A man can go into a forest reserve and locate a homestead?

Mr. PINCHOT. The proceeding is this: Under the act of June 11, 1906, upon an application being made for a homestead entry in a forest reserve the Secretary of Agriculture must cause an examination to be made to ascertain whether the land is really more valuable for

(Witness: Pinchot.)

agricultural than forest purposes. If the examination determines it to be in fact agricultural land, then the man who makes the application has a preference right to enter the land, and he may then make his entry exactly as he would if the land were outside of a forest

reserve.

The CHAIRMAN. Suppose the Secretary adversely determines that / question?

Mr. PINCHOT. Then, if he adversely determines that question, it is for the reason that the land is not agricultural in character, but more valuable for some other use. It often happens that the would-be entryman wants it for some other reason.

The CHAIRMAN. But in that case the homesteader's right is de- / feated?

Mr. PINCHOT. No; because the homesteader has no right.

The CHAIRMAN. His privilege, then. He has no power to make his privilege effective?

Mr. PINCHOT. He has the right to make his privilege effective on any land that is suitable for homesteading, but if he wants to locate a very heavy body of timber under the guise of a homestead entry, and thereby defeat the purpose of the forest-reserve law, he is not permitted to do so.

The CHAIRMAN. So that in the last analysis it depends upon the judgment of the Secretary of Agriculture as to whether a homestead entry shall be made or not?

Mr. PINCHOT. It depends upon the judgment of the Secretary of Agriculture as to the character of the land applied for.

The CHAIRMAN. If in his judgment the character of the land is such that it is not properly subject to homesteading, that prevents a man from following his homestead claim?

Mr. PINCHOT. Precisely; as Congress has specifically authorized the Secretary to do.

The CHAIRMAN. So that in the last analysis it is really in the power of the Secretary of Agriculture under the law to determine whether or not a homestead shall be in a forest reserve?

Mr. PINCHOT. The law directs him the right to say what the character of the land is.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; and from that follows, of course, the right to say whether it should be subject to homesteading or not?

Mr. PINCHOT. Yes; in a forest reserve.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you quote as a part of your answer the law to which you refer?

Mr. PINCHOT. It is a short law. I will insert it.

AGRICULTURAL SETTLEMENT.

[Act of June 11, 1906. (34 Stat. L., 233.)]

The Secretary of Agriculture may, in his discretion, and he is hereby authorized, upon application or otherwise, to examine and ascertain as to the location and extent of lands within permanent or temporary forest reserves, except the following counties in the State of California: Inyo, Tulare, Kern, San Luis Obispo, Santa Barbara, Ventura. Los Angeles, San Bernardino, Orange, Riverside, and San Diego, which are chiefly valuable for agriculture, and which, in his opinion, may be occupied for agricultural purposes without injury to the forest reserves, and which are not needed for public purposes, and may list and

(Witness: Pinchot.)

describe the same by metes and bounds, or otherwise, and file the lists and descriptions with the Secretary of the Interior, with the request that the said lands be opened to entry in accordance with the provisions of the homestead laws and this act.

Upon the filing of any such list or description the Secretary of the Interior shall declare the said lands open to homestead settlement and entry in tracts not exceeding one hundred and sixty acres in area and not exceeding one mile in length at the expiration of sixty days from the filing of the list in the land office of the district within which the lands are located, during which period the said list or description shall be prominently posted in the land office and advertised for a period of not less than four weeks in one newspaper of general circulation published in the county in which the lands are situated: Provided, That any settler actually occupying and in good faith claiming such lands for agricultural purposes prior to January first, nineteen hundred and six. and who shall not have abandoned the same, and the person, if qualified to make a homestead entry, upon whose application the land proposed to be entered was examined and listed, shall, each in the order named, have a preference right of settlement and entry: Provided further, That any entryman desiring to obtain patent to any lands described by metes and bounds entered by him under the provisions of this act shall, within five years of the date of making settlement, file, with the required proof of residence and cultivation, a plat and field notes of the lands entered, made by or under the direction of the United States surveyor-general, showing accurately the boundaries of such lands, which shall be distinctly marked by monuments on the ground, and by posting a copy of such plat, together with a notice of the time and place of offering proof, in a conspicuous place on the land embraced in such plat during the period prescribed by law for the publication of his notice of intention to offer proof, and that a copy of such plat and field notes shall also be kept posted in the office of the register of the land office for the land district in which such lands are situated for a like period; and further, that any agricultural lands within forest reserves may, at the discretion of the Secretary. be surveyed by metes and bounds, and that no lands entered under the provisions of this act shall be patented under the commutation provisions of the homestead laws, but settlers, upon final proof, shall have credit for the period of their actual residence upon the lands covered by their entries.

SEC. 2. That settlers upon lands chiefly valuable for agriculture within forest reserves on January first, nineteen hundred and six, who have already exercised or lost their homstead privilege, but are otherwise competent to enter lands under the homestead laws, are hereby granted an additional homestead right of entry for the purposes of this act only, and such settlers must otherwise comply with the provisions of the homestead law, and in addition thereto must pay two dollars and fifty cents per acre for lands entered under the provisions of this section, such payment to be made at the time of making final proof on such lands.

SEC. 3. That all entries under this act in the Black Hills Forest Reserve shall be subject to the quartz or lode mining laws of the United States, and the laws and regulations permitting the location, appropriation, and use of the waters within the said forest reserves for mining, irrigation, and other purposes; and no titles acquired to agricultural lands in said Black Hills Forest Reserve under this act shall vest in the patentee any riparian rights to any stream or streams of flowing water within said reserve; and that such limitation of title shall be expressed in the patents for the lands covered by such entries.

SEC. 4. That no homestead settlements or entries shall be allowed in that portion of the Black Hills Forest Reserve in Lawrence and Pennington counties. in South Dakota, except to persons occupying lands therein prior to January first, nineteen hundred and six, and the provisions of this act shall apply to the said counties in said reserve only so far as is necessary to give and perfect title of such settlers or occupants to lands chiefly valuable for agriculture therein occupied or claimed by them prior to the said date, and all homestead entries under this act in said counties in said reserve shall be described by metes and bounds survey.

SEC. 5. That nothing herein contained shall be held to authorize any future settlement on any lands within forest reserves until such lands have been opened to settlement as provided in this act, or to in any way impair the legal rights of any bona fide homestead settler who has or shall establish residence upon public lands prior to their inclusion within a forest reserve.

(Witness: Pinchot.)

The CHAIRMAN. Would the fact that you have included in a forest reserve any homesteads, if you went no further-would that of itself tend in any way to embarrass the homestead right?

Mr. PINCHOT. Not in the slightest.

The CHAIRMAN. If the question were raised, it would be for the Secretary of Agriculture to say whether the particular homestead included in the forest reserve was land of such a character as not properly to be subject to homesteading?

Mr. PINCHOT. Any claim established before the establishment of a forest reserve is subject to no one's jurisdiction.

The CHAIRMAN. A man who has made a homestead entry acquires an absolute prior right?

Mr. PINCHOT. Yes; an absolute prior right.

The CHAIRMAN. And there is no forest reservation you could make that can defeat or impair his right?

Mr. PINCHOT. Not in any way whatsoever. The act of June 11 is to the effect that if there should be any land left in a forest reserve suitable for homestead entries it should be put to that use.

The CHAIRMAN. Is it the intention of your Department to include land that is fit for agricultural purposes in the forest reservations in the first instance?

Mr. PINCHOT. It is not, and it is only because the lay of the land prevents us from cutting out here and there a quarter section or sometimes a section of agricultural land lying within a body of pure timber land that this act of June 11 was passed. It is the intention of the Forest Service at every point to favor legitimate homestead entry.

The CHAIRMAN. You say you are not able to give the number of homestead entries that are included in the forest reserves up to date? Mr. PINCHOT. Those figures have not been prepared.

The CHAIRMAN. Where could those figures be found?

Mr. PINCHOT. They could be given for certain forest reserves that have been examined under the method I have described, but for the forest reserves that were created before that method was devised it would take a long examination to get the figures.

The CHAIRMAN. Where would that information be obtainable? Mr. PINCHOT. In the local and General Land offices.

The CHAIRMAN. All these applications for land in forest reserves go through the Land Office?

Mr. PINCHOT. They do.

The CHAIRMAN. And the Secretary of the Interior or the Land Office has the responsibility of determining the question of homestead entries? Or is that taken into account in approving any recommendation you might make?

Mr. PINCHOT. They look into questions of title and check up the results which we give them; but unless for some other reason they think they ought to object, the recommendation is passed through at once.

The CHAIRMAN. That involves a more or less careful examination on their part as to land on which homestead entries have already been made?

Mr. PINCHOT. Yes.

23848-07-52

(Witness: Pinchot.)

The CHAIRMAN. Do I understand that it is in the land offices only that a record of these entries is to be found?

Mr. PINCHOT. Except as we have made maps showing the condition of title at the time of the creation of reserves, which we have done with the more recently created reserves. Our maps are made from the local land offices.

The CHAIRMAN. So that that information comes from the land offices and from the Department of the Interior as to recent entries? Mr. PINCHOT. Yes; all of it.

The CHAIRMAN. How many public schools have you included in your forest reserves?

Mr. PINCHOT. Nobody knows, and that would take long investigation to ascertain.

The CHAIRMAN. Under what circumstances have public schools been included at all?

Mr. PINCHOT. Doubtless many public schools have been included in the territory of forest reserves. For example, there are in many places considerable towns lying wholly within the boundaries of forest reserves, and the schools in those towns would be included. So would the public schools of school districts lying in the reserves. The policy of the Service to promote the settlement of all agricultural lands which may have been included in the forest reserves necessarily involves the policy of favoring the extension of schools, and that policy had gone so far that in the last agricultural appropriation bill it was provided that 10 per cent of all the proceeds from fore t reserves should be turned over annually to the States, to be used by the counties in which the reserves lie for public schools and roads.

The CHAIRMAN. That simply means the proceeds from the use, whatever it may be? If they continue to get anything from the use, they get the sums thus received, and if there are any sales they get the sums received from the sales?

Mr. PINCHOT. Precisely. They get 10 per cent of all the gross proceeds.

The CHAIRMAN. Could you give any approximation of the settlements in which the schools are located?

Mr. PINCHOT. It would be substantially impossible. I presume that the school records of the different States might yield this information, but so far as I know it does not exist in Washington.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you received protests or objections to the creation of forest reserves in the territory occupied by schools?

Mr. PINCHOT. I am not aware that any protest against the creation of a forest reserve has ever been received from the school authorities of any State or county. It has frequently been mentioned, in protests coming from other bodies, that there would be schools in the area included in the reserves, which is right and proper.

The CHAIRMAN. I understand the policy you are operating upon is calculated and intended by your Bureau to develop schools?

Mr. PINCHOT. Precisely. We hope there will be schools in all the

reserves.

The CHAIRMAN. The purpose being, if I get your idea aright, to have all the territory within the limits of the forest reserves that can be utilized for agricultural purposes thus utilized?