so many of which are being operated in our country. I suppose at least 15 to 20 per cent of the total production is produced from immature trees that do not produce any profit. The life of that tree is destroyed, preventing future growth that would make it good for lumber. In working these small trees we do not produce any profit, but destroy wealth and make an overproduction of turpentine. I have always been in favor of letting the small tree grow until more mature when we can make a profit out of it. I have kept an account of the costs and I know for a fact that you put more money into a small tree than you get out of it.

Mr. Gamble: When the cup system came in I remember talking with Mr. Shotter, who certainly was one of the ablest who ever handled naval stores. He had been carefully looking into the cup system, and he said it would bring about two things, bring about overproduction and bring down the price of the pale grades to a point where they and the low grades would be on a level; and Mr. Shotter's prediction has very well been demonstrated. He saw that the cup would enable them to work smaller trees, and that the industry would be guilty of all sorts of overproduction.

Mr. J. G. Pace, President, Pace Lumber Co., Pensacola, Fla. I have belonged to this Southern Forestry Congress for a number of years. I was with it last year in Montgomery. In regard to naval stores, I am glad to see these turpentine people connected with it. We have been turpentining for thirty years like Mr. Hodges said. I went through Southwest Georgia about thirty years ago, out by Cordele, Americus and Abbeville, and I told my wife when I left Pensacola yesterday that I was going to come through Georgia in day-light. I came to Montgomery Saturday morning, and got on the train,-came by the Seaboard all the way through. Thirty years ago it was a beautiful country with timber on it. Today in all those vast acres there is nothing left but denuded land, land not fit for farming or making anything, nothing but stumps left on that land. Well, sir, I was never more surprised, to see the land between Americus and Cordele and over here at these rivers, cleared up down to the branches. They are turpentining right along in these spaces, cutting right in the little small spaces that were left. There is a growth of timber there large enough for

turpentining, and a gentleman I was talking with last night on the train said they were getting 48 to 55 gallons of turpentine per acre. That beats Florida.

Now, whether we take the command and go forward or not, I do say this, that the man who owned timber, and stood still, has got more than the man who has gone forward in the effort for gain. That is my experience. To illustrate that, I am going to tell you a little coincidence in my own business. A young man once came to me, about the time I lived in Georgia, about 22 or 23 years ago, and said, "Mr. Pace, I want to borrow $150 to buy a piece of land." I said, "Is there anything on it?" He said, "Nothing but a second growth of timber." This was 22 years ago. I loaned him $150, and he bought something like 450 acres of land. Now, these turpentine people had already turpentined a small amount of adjoining timber. I said, "Now Mills, these turpentine people will be nosing up by you before long,-just hold your timber." He did. And six or eight years later he sold that timber to the turpentine people for $1500. He kept his land and had a pretty fair growth of small timber.

Reforestation is no individual or no corporation concern. It is a community interest. No one individual, no one corporation, no several corporations can do it alone.

Taxes at 20 cents per acre, while you have got a young growth of timber on it, seems to me pretty high. It is discouraging for a man to try to hold a tract of land to reforest with the high rate of taxation you have to pay. However, I believe I had just as soon have money invested in cut over pine land as to have it put in anything else, even at 20 cents per acre, when I consider the number of trees growing on the land.

The lease system is bad. A turpentine man takes a short lease. Labor is scarce and hard to manage. He will do anything to try to cut it all before his three year lease expires. That is a bad system, but most of us work that way.

Mr. Thomas Gamble: Just as a little interlude between hearing from the operators, I am going to introduce a resolution to bring the matter right before the meeting. All of you know that the Government is doing a good deal for the turpentine industry. Ever since Dr. Herty began his investigation which opened up interest in the naval stores industry, more and

more attention is given to it by the National Government and in various operations throughout the South, but we all realize that the Government is not doing as much as it should do, that these investigations are hampered very much by the absence of adequate appropriations. In the matter of uses of naval stores, for instance, the Government could do a great deal of work toward broadening the uses of rosin and turpentine and in finding out what they can be used for. A gentleman came to my office a week or ten days ago. He is one of the largest buyers of rosin in the world. His concern handles one hundred to two hundred thousand round barrels of rosin, quite a batch of stuff for one concern. He told me the Eastman Kodak Co. was importing three to five thousand barrels of French rosin every year because they couldn't get sufficiently fine rosins in the United States. I do not vouch for that statement, I am giving it to you as given to me. He says we don't make the fine rosins for the needs of that concern, and they had gotten a French rosin, which they call AAAA, a grade about four or five grades lighter than our best water white rosin. There may be others in this country who would use a No. 4A grade if it was called to their attention. It might be this quality of rosins could be enormously developed in this country. These are the things that the Government could and ought to do for us in the rosin and turpentine and various other trades. Now, to bring that before the meeting, the following resolution has been prepared:

*TO URGE CONGRESS TO MAKE PROPER APPROPRIATIONS FOR RESEARCH TO AID THE NAVAL STORES INDUSTRY

WHEREAS, The Naval Stores industry of the United States, including the States of North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, Florida, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, and Texas, in its production of spirits turpentine and rosin and allied products represent a gross aggregate value of fifty million dollars annually, of which approximately one-half, or twenty-five million dollars, is exported to foreign countries yearly, and WHEREAS, This industry furnishes constant employment to many thousands of men and represents an invested working capital of many millions of dollars, and is a source of prosperity to large sections of the Southern States referred to, and a large element in the freights of railroads and steamship lines, and

This resolution is here given in its amended form as finally adopted by the Congress.

WHEREAS, These naval stores products are essential elements in the manufacture of many commodities used in domestic consumption and extensively exported, and thereby assist materially in the employment of many thousands in manufactories located in other sections of our country, and

WHEREAS, The perpetuation of this naval stores industry and its profitable operation depend upon reforestration and the establishment of improved methods of production, and

WHEREAS, The Federal Government in recent years has undertaken investigations and furnished valuable coöperative assistance in efforts to promote the industry, but has permitted such vitally important cooperative work to be seriously hampered by inadequate funds, thereby preventing the industry from deriving the full benefits that should accrue from governmental coöperation of this character; therefore, be it

RESOLVED, By the Southern Forestry Congress, assembled at Savannah, Georgia, in its Sixth Annual Congress, and on a day devoted entirely to the naval stores industry, that a committee of seven representing the several sections of the naval stores belt, and including representatives of the naval stores sections of the Savannah Board of Trade, Jacksonville Chamber of Commerce and Pensacola Chamber of Commerce, be appointed by the President of the Congress to memoralize the United States Congress and communicate directly with the Senators and Representatives from the naval stores states, urging larger and continued appropriations for the naval stores industry, and that in particular appropriations be made for research work looking to new and broadened uses for spirits turpentine, rosins and allied products, and for field and laboratory work that will promote the practical industry and encourage and establish reforestation as the means of its perpetual continuance, such Committee in its memorial to present facts and arguments and elaborate on the work the Government can satisfactorily and effectively do in this connection.

Dr. F. P. Veitch, U. S. Department of Agriculture, Washington, D. C.: I think it is needless to say that we are deeply interested in your industry, and that the Department of Agriculture has the greatest desire to be of all possible help to you in making it a success, not only for the present, but for the future years. Perhaps I should give you a brief outline of what we in the Bureau of Chemistry are trying to do. I think it is of the greatest importance and greatest service to you, a work that ought to be done, and that work we are trying to supply or carry on further both at the still and in the uses of your products. Now, our work is divided in general into three main lines, that of domestic research work and the enforcement of the recently enacted Naval Stores Act. The purpose of our domestic work is at the individual places to carry to the

individual operator and his force the best methods known to the Department of Agriculture, to develop by the Forest Service, wherever we can supply that work, our own rule and the best methods known to the industry itself. Wherever we see a good thing in the hands of an operator we steal it from him and give it to the rest of them. That is what we want to do. He has no objection there. Bear that in mind. He is perfectly willing that the good thing that he finds out may be passed on for the use of the whole industry. So we are trying, among other things, to stop these tremendous losses that occur after the gum is drawn from the tree. It has been very clearly brought out here this morning, and should have been known a long time, that the larger that loss the less we got from a diminished or small tree. It has been shown that this is the least productive. I am perfectly convinced that we are losing money also on all the larger trees because of the wasteful processes that are so generally used through a large section of the industry. I am frank to say that at least ten per cent will be a low estimate of the increased value that you could get from a thorough careful control and saving of the wastes that now occur in the industry, and that increased return is profit, because you have already had all your expenses.

In this demonstration work which we have been doing ever since we have had operation of naval stores the government has been fortunate in securing the services of a man who knew naval stores from a to z. This man at present is located here in Savannah. He is at your service, to visit your places and help you in every way that it is possible, to point out where he thinks you can improve your outturn and receipts and make more money. He is here for you to call on at any time, either here or at your places, and I hope that a large number of you will do this. We want to extend that work and make it more useful to you, as funds are available. We are seriously handicapped this year in that work, and I am a little fearful that we will have difficulty in raising funds to assist you in the field as we would like to do during the present year, but we are making our best efforts to get funds from our present resources.

Now, in addition to that, we are doing constantly a great amount of research work, looking to a better production, the reasons why we are getting lower grade articles, the reasons