these Papers are laid before the House | which it might be excused, or, at least, and read dispassionately, I have no doubt justified, it was the occasion which now the House will come to a wise conclu- presented itself. He was not going to sion upon them; but, on the part of Her blame the right hon. Gentleman or his Majesty's Government, and for the Colleagues for not having stated all general interests of the country, I must that had transpired between the Powers express a hope that the opinion of the with reference to this great question; House will be formed upon the authentic but he thought that when, as somebody documents which, upon the responsibility said the other night, the Session was of the Government, are placed upon the nearly at its close-that in about a Table of the House and submitted to the month from that time those benches consideration of hon. Members, and not would be very thinly occupied-that upon anonymous articles in the papers these Papers, which were said to be from the pens of "Our own Correspon- very voluminous, would not be laid upon dents," who are now sprinkled over all the Table of the House for a week, the capitals of Europe. I could not col- or probably a fortnight-that then there lect, on account of the murmur in the would be very little time left to discuss House, exactly what the statement was them. He should have been very glad which the hon. Member read, but I heard if the right hon. Gentleman had comsome opinions imputed to the Govern- municated__something himself to the ment as their matured policy, and I House. He knew all about it. He heard them for the first time. Part of knew how great must be the anxiety what I did hear appeared to be too ridi- in the country with regard to it, and he culous for belief, though it may have could, in a quarter of an hour or less, been founded on the gossip which is tell the House and the country probably always circulating wherever diplomatic everything they wished to know. For proceedings are being carried on. I put instance, he could tell them how it was it to the House that there is no wish on that, having agreed to the Andrassy the part of the Government to conceal Note, the Government thought it necesanything from the House, except what sary not to agree to the Berlin Note. they believe it is for the public interest He made no charge against the Governthat reserve should be maintained. We ment, neither did he blame them; it have arrived at a period in these trans- might be they had done right; he hoped actions when, with scarcely an excep- it would prove to be so. Still, it would tion, we can place before the House the have been a satisfaction to the House Papers that have been exchanged be- and the country to know what there tween the different Courts. Having was in the Berlin Note that was so far before it the authentic documents, for from the Andrassy Note that the Gowhich the Government is responsible, the vernment were able to consent to the House will be in a position to form an one and were not able to concur in the opinion, and all I ask the House is that other. It would, moreover, have been they will form their opinions from such a satisfaction to have known, as the documents offered on such responsibility, Government were not willing to agree and not from anonymous articles in the with the other Powers in the Berlin newspapers. Note, that they had some other-it might be some wise and better-policy which they offered to the Powers in substitution for that with which they could not agree. House and the country would be very glad to know this, and nobody would be more glad than he to know that the Government behaved with such wisdom as one hoped from them in so grave a crisis. Every hon. Member on both sides was anxious that the Government should do that on that great question which was consistent with the honour of the country and the desire for peace; but when we looked back at what oc

MR. JOHN BRIGHT said, he thought hon. Gentlemen on the other side of the House were inclined to deal hardly with the hon. Member for Dundee. They had heard from the right hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth (Sir Robert Peel) that he had been in the House 30 years; but he (Mr. Bright) had been a Member for even a longer time, and he remembered scores of instances in which, on some emergency, hon. Members on both sides had moved the Adjournment of the House for the purpose of bringing forward a specific question. If ever there was a case in

He was sure the

curred in 1854, when the Government, | regard to the East was in strict analogy according to one of its chief officers, with what occurred in 1853. Then drifted gradually and he was afraid discussions took place on the mere ex to use the word which rose to his lips- parte statements of Ministers, and which discreditably into a sanguinary struggle, did not give correct views of the situawe could not help but have our fears, tion. At the end of that Session, a few and he at any rate felt, as one of the minutes before the Prorogation, a Quesgreat Council of the nation, that they tion was put by Mr. Monckton Milnes had a right to be taken into consulta- to Lord Palmerston, who expressed his tion and to consider the matter. They opinion that things would end peaceably, had a right also to have an opinion, and on that account Papers were not and to express it, before the country laid upon the Table. It would be danwas irrevocably committed to a policy gerous if a similar course were adopted which they might find it necessary to on the present occasion. There was some condemn. As to that, he would only similarity between the circumstances say that if the policy of the Government then and the present crisis. The Crimean was that of maintaining the integrity of War began on the question of Montethe Ottoman Empire at the sacrifice of negro; the present complications begun British treasure and British blood, he on the question of Servia. The British believed, after the experience of 20 Fleet was then in Besika Bay; the years ago, that no considerable portion British Fleet was now in Besika Bay. of the people of the United Kingdom Instead of the Russians having crossed would be found to support the Govern- the Pruth, the Servians had crossed the ment in that policy. Further, if the Drina. He believed the majority of policy of the Government were to give the people of this country, considering its countenance, even its moral support, that the Government had won a diploto the Turk, in opposition to the strug- matic triumph, fully ratified the course gles and efforts that were being made taken by them. [Hon. MEMBERS : by some of the subjects of the Porte to What course?] The Government had free themselves from its dominion, the sent the fleet to Besika Bay. [Laughter.] people of this country would not support Hon. Members laughed; but they did the Government. So far as they were not recollect the circumstances that preneutral in the struggle, so far as they ceded the Crimean War, or they must agreed to leave to itself that great con- know that it was now admitted by all test, which was inevitable, and must Russian diplomatists that if the Fleet had be determined by the forces on the spot, been sent to Besika Bay when Colonel then, he thought, in all probability the Rose sent for it, the Crimean War would great bulk of public opinion in this not have taken place. He trusted the country would support them. He did right hon. Gentleman would not be not wish to enter into any discussion of hurried into a premature discussion on the subject, nor to offer any policy of this subject, but that he would produce his own, except so far as he had ex- the Papers as early as possible. pressed his opinion; but he besought the Government not to pursue a policy that might lead them into all kinds of complexity, such as the Government of 1854 waded into, and then find there was no way out but by a war, which, in his opinion, was unjust in its beginning, disastrous in its course, and ignominious in its conclusion.

SIR H. DRUMMOND WOLFF said, he thought that, under the present circumstances, it would be most disastrous if a discussion on the subject were to take place before the House had had an opportunity of reading the Correspondence which had taken place between Her Majesty's Government and the Powers. The present position with

Mr. John Bright

MR. FAWCETT said, the hon. Member who had just sat down was somewhat inconsistent. He deprecated discussion, and then expressed his opinion that the majority of the House would approve the policy of the Government. Now what they wanted to know was, what was the policy of the Government? At present they did not know what it was, and the impression was beginning to spread on these benches, and through them it would be communicated to the country, that the time had come when they ought to know something more of the policy of the Government at that great juncture than they did at that moment. No doubt, as the Prime Minister had said, it would be far better

MR. E. JENKINS rose to order. He had carefully abstained from giving the Notice.

that the discussion should be taken and dislike by hon. Members on his side when they had the Papers before them, of the House. Yet throughout the and he was not going to say a syllable whole time that those negotiations were about the policy of the Government; going on, the greatest influence was but he wished to point out that the used, and used successfully, to maintain question was not simply whether they silence on the question until the Goshould have a discussion when the vernment of the day carried their policy Papers were laid upon the Table, but to a completion. What had they seen whether they had any guarantee what- that evening? The Government, no ever that the country would not have doubt, conducting negotiations of the glided into grave complications before greatest difficulty and delicacy; and yet the Papers were laid before the House, the hon. Member for Dundee committed and before the House could express its a breach of the Rules of the House by opinions on the policy of the Govern- moving its Adjournment after giving a ment. The right hon. Gentleman had definite Notice of what they were to be used some expressions which would asked to discuss. cause uneasiness throughout the country to-morrow. He had said that "the Papers were very voluminous, but before he laid them on the Table foreign Powers must be consulted." Before this Government had embarked upon a grave policy of which the country might disapprove, something more must be done besides consulting foreign Powers. The House of Commons must be consulted; and he thought the right hon. Gentleman should give the House and the country an assurance that voluminous as these Papers were, and whether foreign Powers did or did not place obstacles in the way of their production, before the week had elapsed there would be no further delay, and an opportunity would be given the House of expressing its opinion on the subject. He believed it was the wish of the people of this country that no more English blood should be spilt and English treasure spent in maintaining the integrity of an Empire which he believed could not be permanently maintained, and that England ought not to be compromised by pursuing a policy which he believed would bring upon her disgrace and trouble, and her power ought not to be used against those who were trying to emancipate themselves from a galling and an unendurable thraldom.

MR. PERCY WYNDHAM said, he wished to draw a contrast between the conduct they had seen that evening and the course which was pursued by the present Government when they were in Opposition a few years ago. The right hon. Gentlemen opposite were then conducting negotiations with America which led to the Washington Treaty-negotiations viewed with the greatest distrust

MR. PERCY WYNDHAM said, the hon. Member began by giving Notice. The Government was carrying on delicate negotiations. ["No, no!"] Anyhow, he only wished to draw attention to the contrast between the conduct of the two Oppositions, for now, when the hon. Member took the course he had adopted that evening, he was backed up by a right hon. Gentleman on the front bench. The Government had recently gained a diplomatic triumph, and it had secured for this country a feeling abroad to which it had been a stranger for 40 years, that they had a Ministry who were capable of upholding the dignity and honour of the nation.

DR. KENEALY thought the discussion was very inconvenient. It was brought before the House without Notice and without the sanction of the Leaders of the Opposition, who seemed to be Leaders without united followers. He sympathized with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Birmingham (Mr. Bright) in the hope that the Government would not lead the country into a Russian war as the Whig Government did in 1854. The country was not prepared to repeat the folly committed on that occasion. He knew a little about the East. pathy with what was called the religious question in the East. He believed the Christians of the East were about the worst specimens of humanity extant. He had, however, great sympathy with the feelings of the people of this country, and he believed their feelings were that such an anachronism as the Turkish

He had no sym

and will have shown-will have convinced the Government that there is a strong feeling in this House-but not stronger, I am sure, than that which it represents out-of-doors-a strong feeling of the deepest anxiety on this subject and the utmost eagerness to have

Power in Europe ought not any longer to be supported by British blood and treasure. Turkey must fall, let the right hon. Gentleman opposite do what he pleased. It might be supposed that Ministers were able to read the signs of the times, and the right hon. Gentleman must see that it was impossible to main-an opportunity, as soon as possible, of tain Turkey in Europe. He agreed with the right hon. Member for Birmingham that the discussion of this question should not be postponed till the end of the Session, and he hoped an early opportunity would be afforded the House of considering it. At the same time, he was sorry to hear what the Prime Minister had said upon the question, for it was new to him, and he believed new to the country, that a Minister of England would not lay upon the Table of the House of Commons diplomatic documents of the greatest importance without first asking the sanction of foreign Powers. That was not an English or a great policy, though it might be a convenient policy, and he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would lay the Papers on the Table regardless of what other Powers might think, consulting only the honour and interest of England in the matter.

knowing what that policy has been. Without incurring the strictures of the hon. Gentleman the Member for West Cumberland, which, I think, have been hardly deserved, I may appeal to Members of the Government themselves whether they have suffered the slightest embarrassment in these negotiations from hon. Members sitting on this side of the House. It may be true-I do not know whether it is strictly true-that during the course of the American negotiations no formal discussion was ever initiated on the Opposition Benches; but my recollection deceives me very much if the Government of that day was not put repeatedly and very minutely to the question upon points arising in the course of those negotiations. And I believe that this is the first occasion since the opening of Parliament on which any discussion has arisen upon these recent negotiations. It appears to me unreaTHE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: sonable and impossible to expect-to I only rise, Sir, to say a few words, and require from the Government any stateI do not propose to detain the House ment of their present policy which they more than a minute or two. There is are not disposed at this moment_to undoubtedly considerable inconvenience volunteer to give to the House. Unin a discussion of this sort, brought for- doubtedly, if the Government thought ward without Notice and without mate- it would be conducive to the public serrials on which a judgment can be formed. vice, and if they had any information I wish, therefore, to express a hope-of to give to the House as to the course course it would be presumptuous to ex- they are at this moment pursuing, that press more than a hope that the de- information would be received with the bate may not be carried very much fur- utmost pleasure and satisfaction. It is, ther. But, Sir, although there is some however, quite impossible for us who sit inconvenience in the course that has been on this side of the House to ask the Gotaken, it may not have been taken al-vernment to tell us what is the policy together without advantage. I do not suppose that the Government have ever at any time been under the delusion that the country was not watching the course of events in the East with the utmost anxiety, or that they were prepared to accept with a blind confidence the policy of the Government until they had larger opportunities than they have had of forming an opinion of what that policy has been. But this short discussion, even if it proceeds no further than it has hitherto done, will have removed all possible misconception on these points,

Dr. Kenealy

they are now pursuing, while we are in ignorance as to the policy which they have been pursuing. All we are entitled to require from them- and on that point I think they do not require any pressure

is to urge on them that these Papers should be presented with the least possible delay, and that the House should be allowed an opportunity as soon as possible of expressing its opinion on the subject.

MR. DISRAELI: Sir, I must claim the indulgence of the House to explain an expression I used, which to hon.

To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words 'this House, whilst recognizing the necessity and efficiency in the management of Prisons, is of measures being adopted to secure economy of opinion that it would be inexpedient to transfor the control and management of Prisons from Local Authorities to the Secretary of State,”— (Mr. Rylands,)

instead thereof.

words proposed to be left out stand part Question again proposed, "That the of the Question."

Debate resumed.

THE LORD MAYOR (Mr. Alderman COTTON) said, the Court of Alder

useful in the measure.

Members who sat in previous Parlia- | Question [22nd June], "That the Bill ments would not have been necessary, be now read a second time; " and which but seeing that the expression I used Amendment was, has been misconceived by several hon. Members, I should like to explain. I said that the Papers were voluminous, and that there were some Papers which we could not lay on the Table without previous communication with foreign Powers. That is the procedure which has always been adopted, as the noble Lord opposite and any hon. Members of this House who have any acquaintance with the conduct of affairs must know. That, however, does not mean that we cannot put on the Table of the House despatches in answer to our own. All those Papers are public records of the feelings, policy, and views of the different countries, and can always be produced; but in the course of negotiations of this kind there are confidential communications made by foreign Powers, and it is very often highly necessary for the vindication of our course and as illustrative of our policy that these documents should be published; but the House will see at once that the ancient custom which has always been observed of consulting foreign Powers before confidential communications on their part are laid before Parliament is a very proper and very wise one. The House must feel that otherwise there would be an end to all confidential intercourse with any foreign Power. When we are told that all that the Government have to do is to consult the House of Commons, and not under any circumstances to consult those who are our allies, the only consequence of such a policy would be that all the Papers we could lay on the Table would be documents which the House would soon find were wanting in light and information on many points of the most interesting character. I thought it right to explain the use of a particular phrase which is customary in Parliament, and to vindicate a practice which has been most salutary, and which has been observed by every Minister who has been entrusted with the conduct of affairs in this country.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

PRISONS BILL.-[BILL 180.] (Mr. Secretary Cross, Sir Henry Selwin-Ibbetson.)

SECOND READING. ADJOURNED DEBATE.

Order read, for resuming Adjourned Debate on Amendment proposed to

men and the Court of Common Council of the City had passed resolutions against the Bill, which resolutions had their origin in the feeling that the Home Secretary already possessed sufficient powers to carry out all that was He had, since the Bill was last under consideration, carefully considered its provisions, and had watched the manner in which it had been received by the municipalities and also by the magistrates at quarter which had held meetings on the subject, sessions. Of the municipalities but few meetings had been held; but as far as he could analyze the results, from a statement in The Times of the number of meetings held for and against the Bill by various municipalities and courts of quarter sessions, it appeared that 25 meetings had been held, of which 13 had voted against the measure, 10 had been indifferent, and two had been neutral. It could, therefore, hardly be said that the measure had been very favourably received by those whom it would most immediately and directly affect. With regard to the magistrates, it was difficult to understand why it was attempted to remove them from the offices which for so many generations they had so well and efficiently filled, . and when, as he contended, they constituted the machinery by which the good order and management of the prisons had been carried out. They blood, and as they went with the times were constantly replenished by new they were sure to take the lead in the improvement of prison management. He feared that the Bill would destroy