of intemperance were very many-they were social, economical, educational, and in some senses touched upon religion. It was to the elevation of the sanitary, social, religious, and moral condition of the poor far more than to laws respecting the licensing of public-houses that we must look for the suppression of intemperance. The advocates of teetotalism told the poor man to drink nothing but water; but was he always sure of getting water to drink? Men were told to drink everywhere. But to make the right or the wrong to depend upon the majority in the streets appeared to him to be perilous to morality, if not positively immoral. It also seemed to him to be decidedly unconstitutional that men should be governed, not by a representative government, but by a personal government-by a plébiscite and by a vote of the streets. How could this system work? Let him give an instance. An eminent ecclesiastic of whom he wished to speak with every re-water, and in many places for water spect Cardinal Manning-advocating they were given diluted sewage. The the Permissive Bill on a great platform, poor man was told to stay at home and said that the ratepayers ought to exer- enjoy the society of his wife and chilcise the same rights as the owners of dren; but what manner of home was it property, and ought to forbid anything he was to stay in? What sort of place being done in their town which any in- was the one room where the man wearied dividual might forbid to be done on his with toil was to spend his evening in the own property. Now, he had been living presence of a wife as weary with toil as for three years in a town the inhabitants he was, and of half-educated children? of which had little fear of liquor, but What sort of attractions were there at had a great fear of the Pope. He was such a home compared with those of the certain that the majority of the inhabit-public-house, from which the poor man ants would not assent to the suppression of the liquor traffic; but if that eminent ecclesiastic had been a lodger in that town, and if the ratepayers had been asked by a two-thirds majority to expel him, he greatly feared there would be no doubt that they would have expelled Cardinal Manning. That would have been in accordance with the principle of the Bill, which is, that a majority of ratepayers may exercise those rights which belong to the owners of property. He protested against the liberty of any one being trusted to a vote of the streets, and he claimed for every one in this Kingdom the right to be governed by representative government, which was the essential condition of freedom. Such a measure would be mischievous, because of the secret and illicit intemperance it would provoke and the incessant quarelling it would produce in every town of the Kingdom. Having shown that he was not altogether that apologist of intemperance and defender of abandoned publicans which he had been described, in consequence of the speech to which he had referred, he would say a word as to the other causes of intemperance which were referred to in the Resolution. He was satisfied it was far more to those other causes we must look for the prevention or the cure of intemperance than to any legislation with respect to the licensing of public-houses. The causes The Bishop of Peterborough was rightly asked to stay away? We He THE EARL OF BELMORE was glad that the most rev. Prelate had brought this Motion forward. The subject was one which had excited much interest in Ireland, and had occupied the attention of the Synods of the Irish Church. He hoped that the Committee, if granted, would extend its inquiries to that country. He agreed with a good deal that had fallen from the right rev. Prelate who spoke last, and he was sensible that this matter involved questions not only of temperance, but also of Revenue and of social convenience. He thought it well, therefore, that there should be an inquiry into the subject by a Select Committee. purify and make beautiful their weary evils which had been caused by drunklabouring lives, quite as much as through enness :-they heard of it in every passing Acts of Parliament, we should direction-magistrates on the bench, at last grapple and, he trusted, by God's Judges of Assize, who were best conblessing, destroy the great curse of our versant with the classes out of whom our nation, intemperance. criminals were mainly drawn, assured them that by far the largest part of the crime of this country was due to intemperance. He thought also that a great deal of the pauperism that existed was attributable to the same cause. It was also charged with the increase of lunacy. That, no doubt, was to a certain extent true; but it was a moot point with the best authorities. The scramble of our modern life-the pace at which we all lived-was supposed by many to have had a large share in the increase of that terrible curse. If it had pleased Providence that no such thing as alcohol should have ever existed, the world might perhaps have been the better for it; but it was a great step from that to say that Parliament ought to make the world the same as if alcohol did not exist in it. It did exist, and it must be taken into account. We could not make our Legislature play the part of a paternal Providence. The general arguments against paternal legislation were so well known, and they had formed part of the political inheritance of this country so long, that he would not waste their Lordships' time by repeating them. But the Legislature had tried its hand at paternal interference on that particular question, although on other matters it ordinarily abstained from it; it had done its best to make the people sober, and after every effort it had made there had been a great outbreak of intemperance THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY said, they were indebted to the most rev. Primate for the very moderate and temperate speech in which he introduced a subject which was peculiarly fitted to excite angry discussion. It was idle to treat those who produced and distributed spirituous liquors as if they were in a position morally worse than any other members of the community who might be employed in producing and distributing articles for which there was an innocent demand. We might just as well make accusations against a man who sold powder and shot, because somebody bought powder of him for the purpose of committing a murder; or depreciate the character of those who sold arsenic for poisoning rats, because oc--whether in consequence of those efforts casionally it was used for other purposes. The most rev. Primate very rightly disclaimed any sympathy with those attacks upon the labouring classes of this country which were occasionally associated with this discussion. He did not think, considering their numbers compared with those of the rest of the community, there was any ground for saying-if we looked over a very long period of time-that they had any monopoly of the vice of intemperance. No doubt the subject was surrounded by the greatest possible difficulties. No one who kept his eyes or his ears open could deny the existence of the evils of which the memorialists complained. This was not in any sense a clerical question. It was not from clergymen alone that they heard of the he could not pretend to say. The Duke of Wellington's Government in 1828 thought to effect a great reform by the creation of beer-houses; and they had heard ever since of nothing else but that the beer-houses were the great source of intemperance in this country. Then, a few years ago, Sir Henry Selwin-Ibbetson brought in a measure to diminish the number of beer-houses; and now it was said that that was the cause of the recent outbreak of intemperance. Mr. Gladstone in 1860 also had his specific for the cure of intemperance. It was one of a somewhat recondite and subtle character-namely, allowing brandy to be sold by grocers; but great reliance was placed on it at the time, and much ridicule was cast on those who suggested that it would produce greater insobriety than before. He was not censuring Mr. Gladstone's measure, because he had himself agreed with it, and thought it would be a good one. But now they heard that the sale of brandy in grocers' shops was introducing an amount of intemperance, not at the public-houses, but in the homes of the working classes which threatened the most serious consequences. It was, moreover, not a species of intemperance which was .confined mainly to one sex, but it could be indulged in secret, and they were told that the opportunity had been used to a terrible degree by women. With those failures, then, before them, they must look to legislative proposals with some caution and apprehension. Even if they could reconcile themselves to the doctrine that it was the business of the English Government to be paternal, and to correct-if he might say it without irreverence the action of Providence in the creation of alcohol, the wrecks of their past failures, should warn them of the difficulty of the task they had undertaken. Another danger which a right rev. Primate had eloquently indicated was the falseness and viciousness of the principle which any careless or despotic legislation on that subject would introduce. It was not merely that they were asked to direct their legislation against vice-that would be a sufficiently dangerous innovation-they already punished drunkenness; but they were asked to go a step further and punish people who did that which was innocent that the guilty might not fall into vice. They were asked to prevent the use of those liquors in order that those who could not restrain themselves should avoid their abuse. Whether that was right or wrong philosophers might dispute, but certainly it was an absolutely new principle in our legislation. They were all very anxious to prevent the vice of gambling, and they had legislated against it. No doubt gambling carried frightful evil to many homes; but what would be thought of a proposal to put a heavy penalty on the possession of a pack of cards? What, again, would be thought of a law rendering it penal to make a bet on a race-course, because such practices sometimes ruined families ? Unless, therefore, they looked carefully where their principles would land them, they would find themselves venturing upon dangerous paths. He The Marquess of Salisbury mentioned these things to indicate the difficulty which surrounded further action in that matter rather than to deprecate the proposed inquiry. The Government did not entertain any very sanguine hopes from that inquiry, or they would have suggested it themselves; but when it was asked for, as it now was, by such high authority, they did not think it right to oppose it. On the contrary, they would assist it as much as they could-especially as it was sought not so much with a view to legislation as to ascertain the facts. For himself, he did not look to legislation as the means of getting rid in any great degree of this great evil. The agitation on this subject, though originating in laudable feelings, was not wholly reasonable. No class could very well bear the sudden arrival of unexpected prosperity; and those who found their income suddenly and largely increase would be tempted towards indulgence. He could confirm what had been said as to the effect of the sudden accession of wealth caused by the gold diggings in Australia, for he happened to be there at the time. The first outbreak of intemperance was fearful, but the authorities put down drunkenness with the strong hand-the rough-and-ready expedient of burning down the grog shops at the diggings was resorted to; and as those interested in the grog shops naturally disapproved of such summary proceedings, sometimes sanguinary results ensued. But as soon as this was done it was found that all the roads leading to the diggings were covered with men lying in a state of intoxication; for when the grog shops were closed the digger went to the nearest town in quest of liquor, and there took in gross what he had not been allowed to take in detail. Sometimes the digger made his way to the nearest public-house, deposited all his money or a nugget on the counter, and said-" Waken me when I have drunk all that;" and when it was all, exhausted he would go back to his work. That was an illustration not only of the futility of such legislation, but that any sudden accession of wealth would demoralize any class, and especially the class that was the least instructed. They should not, therefore, be too much discouraged if the great and sudden increase of wages in the North of England a few years ago had exposed the work. ing classes to some additional tempta- | been discovered by which drunkenness tion. One great remedy to which he could be prevented. He did not think looked was religious teaching, and there- the number of public-houses had anyfore he had heard with satisfaction of thing to do with it, and he did not believe the Memorial on that subject which had it signified a bit whether in a town of been signed by so many thousand clergy- 50,000 or 60,000 inhabitants there were men; for although it might be unwise 200 public-houses or 300. It was notorito ask for fresh legislative restriction, ous that it was not in the towns which still the motives which had induced them possessed the most public-houses that to press that matter on the Legislature drunkenness chiefly prevailed. In Bristol, would doubtless prompt them to do all for instance, which abounded in publicthey possibly could in other directions to houses, yet drunkenness did not exist to accomplish that which they could do so large an extent there as in some Lanbetter than any other men in the King-cashire towns in which there were fewer. dom-namely, to stem the torrent of The fact was that temperature as well as intemperance. Everything which im-climate had a remarkable effect, and if proved either the social or the intel- men wanted to drink they would find lectual condition of the people would opportunities even if the public-houses tend to diminish their craving for drink. To those remedies they must chiefly look; but even in regard to the application of those remedies the proposed inquiry would probably be of value; and if it were conducted with a desire to abstain from those controversies which only tended to obscure that question, it would, he hoped, promote the welfare of those whom they all desired to benefit. LORD ABERDARE said, he understood that one of the objects of the Committee would be to ascertain whether intemperance had increased or not; but he thought the question of increase of intemperance was one that could not be settled by statistics. No doubt mere figures went to prove that such an increase had occurred; but then it must be remembered that it was but a few years that the new Act had been in operation; and that before it was passed the register of convictions was much more loosely kept than it was now. For his own part, he would assert that of late years there had been a most marked improvement in the moral tone of the working men on the question of temper were reduced one-half. The most efficient remedy he had heard of was in a town in Sweden, once notorious for drunkenness, where the public-houses were bought up, and then placed under the management of persons who had no pecuniary interest in selling intoxicating drinks. He was glad that the Government had acceded to the Motion of the most rev. Primate for the appointment of a Select Committee. ance, and he had heard the same Order of the Day for the Second Readfrom many employers and others with ing, read. whom he had spoken on the subject. Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2"." Some years ago drunkenness was hardly(The Marquess of Salisbury.) considered a vice by the working classes, but now it was scarcely mentioned with- THE EARL OF NORTHBROOK agreed out a feeling of shame. Before the with the noble Marquess that the rulers passing of the Act of 1872 there were of the Native States as well as Her 150,000 cases of drunkenness; and after Majesty's Government were most dethe passing of it they increased to sirous to suppress the slave trade. He 183,000, but that increase in the num- did not know as to whether any corresbers must not be attributed to more in-pondence had taken place on the subject temperance, but to the greater accuracy between Her Majesty's Government and of the statistics and to the more effectual the Indian Government; but if there had operation of the law. No plan had yet been he thought it ought to be laid on the Table before their Lordships went | PUBLIC BILLS Resolution in Committee into Committee on the Bill. LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY said, that the consent of the rulers of Indian States ought to have been obtained, and might have been obtained, for the jurisdiction the Bill proposed to assume; this was the more evident from what had been said by the noble Lord who had spoken last, since he said that the rulers of the Native States desired to suppress the slave trade. Great hardships might be caused by this Bill, since the term slave trade would affect not only the Banyans who advanced money in Zanzibar for carrying on the traffic in negroes, but also any Indian who might have in his house a woman that this Bill would call a slave, though she might form part of his family. Such a case had occurred; an Indian who was not a British subject had been sent as a prisoner to India, from Zanzibar, by the British Consul on account of a slave girl. This man had died a prisoner, and the case which had been related to him by Asiatics was looked upon by them as one of great injustice. THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY, in reply, stated that the position of the Native Princes of India was not only different with regard to each other and with regard to the Queen, but was unexampled and unparalleled. He did not think that they would view with favour a revision of the existing Treaties on the ground put forward by the noble Lord (Lord Stanley of Alderley.) No correspondence had been had with the Indian Government on the subject of this Bill, and, therefore, there was not any to lay upon the Table. Ordered-Local Loans (Ireland) [Extinguish- Second Reading--County of Peebles Justiciary * Report-Toll Bridges (River Thames [77-219] [No. 328]. Considered as amended-Medical Practitioners [81]. Third Reading-Gas and Water Orders Confirmation (Chapel-en-le-Frith, &c.) * [195]; Oyster and Mussel Fisheries Order Confirmation [186], and passed. * CONVICT PRISONS (IRELAND). QUESTION. MR. FRENCH asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland, Whether his attention has been drawn to the report of the Directors of Irish Convict Prisons for the year ending the 31st December 1875, and to the recommendation made therein in consequence of the uniform good conduct and very satisfactory discharge of their onerous and responsible duties by the officers of the convict prisons, that those officers should as regards retiring allowance be placed on as advantageous terms as county prison officials; and, whether he is willing to give effect to these recommendations? SIR MICHAEL HICKS - BEACH: My attention, Sir, has been called to the recommendation as to retiring allowances to officers of convict prisons contained in the last Report of the Directors of Irish Convict Prisons. The warders of Irish convict prisons are superannuated on the same scale as the English convict prison warder, both coming, as Civil Servants, under the provisions of the Act of 1859. The question must, therefore, be considered as a whole, and I am not prepared to make any propoac-sition with regard to it. Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a cordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next. House adjourned at half past HOUSE OF COMMONS, Friday, 30th June, 1876. MINUTES.]-SUPPLY-considered in Committee The Earl of Northbrook POST OFFICE-PROVINCIAL CONTINENTAL MESSAGES.-QUESTION. MR. GRIEVE asked the Postmaster General, When it is proposed to alter the tariff for "Provincial Continental Messages?" LORD JOHN MANNERS, in reply, said, that the question did not alone concern the English Post Office, but also foreign administrations and the Submarine Telegraph Company, and he could not, therefore, say whether it was proposed to alter the tariff. The matter was under consideration. |