Burghs (Mr. E. Craufurd), because he | but the Lord Advocate had not adopted believed that the Board of Supervision it. Another recommendation was the was essentially bad. That Committee abolition of all mandates for Parochial was appointed to curse the Board, and it Boards. At present every landlord ended by blessing it, and recommending being a member of a Parochial Board, those alterations in the law which if he was not able to be present and were now carried out by the present attend to the duties and deliberations Bill. He did not object to the Paro- of that body, was allowed to write chial Boards naming the auditors, and out a mandate by which somebody else for the Board of Supervision to approve could vote for him. That was a great of them. While they were getting money abuse in the constitution of Parochial from Government, it was necessary that Boards which was strongly pointed out the Government should see that the by the Committee; but the Lord Advomoney was properly expended. That cate had entirely failed to deal with could not be done without a proper audit. that matter. Another abuse was the He hoped, in conclusion, that the dis- existence of ex-officio members of Pacussion would not be prolonged, and rochial Boards, such as kirk-sessions, he mentioned that he was prepared to sup- clergymen, and town councillors, who port some Amendments in Committee. perhaps were not even themselves payers of poor rates, and who were present as ex-officio members of those Boards. The abolition of these had been recommended. He need not now enter into a discussion of the details of the Bill. There were many points in which, of course, it might be improved when they got into Committee; but there were some others in which he was afraid they could hardly hope it could be improved. The constitution of the Boards in rural parishes was certainly very bad and very illiberal, and he feared that it would be impossible to introduce any great change for the better in this Bill. Then the Parochial Boards would be robbed of very much of their power by this Bill, while the Board of Supervision would undoubtedly have too much authority. The Government were actually giving the Board of Supervision the power to make such rules for the management of poor-houses as would practically convert them into prisons, and make the paupers into criminals. He thought that provision could not be too strongly condemned. He had entertained hopes, when the Lord Advocate moved for the re-committal of this Bill pro forma in order to its being re-printed with Amendments, that there might have been some improvements introduced. A large number of Amendments had been placed on the Paper by hon. Members, and he had hoped some of them would have been accepted; but when the Bill had been reprinted it was found that scarcely one had been introduced, and that all that were introduced were those of the Lord Advocate himself. Certainly that mode of dealing with the Amend MR. ANDERSON said, that having been a Member of the Committee which had been so often alluded to, he was not only quite willing to acknowledge the necessity for some Bill being introduced, but had even intimated to his own constituents his intention of making some attempt to complete the work of that Committee which Mr. Craufurd had so zealously attempted, and he was therefore much pleased when he found that the right hon. and learned Lord Advocate had brought in a measure which, to a certain extent, followed the lines of the Report of that Committee. There were many reasons why such a Bill was necessary; but he did not think that they need discuss them now. They did not need to go back to show the necessity for this Bill further than the present Session, in which they had been discussing a Bill for the amendment of the Poor Law in England, especially in regard to the disputed point of settlement. But for that alone a Bill would be necessary. When, however, he came to the question of the qualities of the particular Bill which the Lord Advocate had brought in, he confessed that he was obliged to condemn it. It appeared to him that while the right hon. and learned Gentleman had followed the lines of the Report of the Committee, he had done so in all the bad and illiberal points, and had failed to follow them in a great many of their best suggestions. For instance, the abolition of all exemptions from the payment of poor rates, except for inability to pay, was a most valuable recommendation, Mr. Orr Ewing ments on the Bill had taken from him | but the result was that they reported all confidence and hope that they would strongly in favour of the Board of Sube able to make a good measure of it. pervision having properly administered Previous to that, he did think that some- the powers intrusted to them by the Act thing might be done to improve it. of 1845. He would ask the House to Much had been said about the Board of bear in mind that this Board of SuperSupervision. He had not himself pro- vision had been in existence from 1845 posed any change in the Board of down to the present time, and he was Supervision, and he was bound to admit not aware of any case in which there that what the hon. Member for Dum- had been any charge of abuse made barton (Mr. Orr Ewing) had said in against them with reference to the defence of that Board was certainly manner in which they had administered borne out by the evidence before the their power since 1845. As the ComCommittee. There was, however, great mittee expressed their opinion, Scotland difference of opinion on the subject. was very fortunate in having first at the The hon. Member for the Wigton head of the Board Sir John M'Neill, Burghs (Mr. Mark Stewart) had con- who ably administered affairs; and since demned the Board of Supervision, and then they had had a gentleman who was had said that it might be amended in secretary of the Board during the greater Committee; but he did not see that the hon. part of Sir John's tenure of office, and Member had put down any Amendments who, he ventured to say, had in like for the purpose of amending the consti- manner administered the affairs of the tution of that Board. He (Mr. Ander- Board in such a way that he was not son) would only say further at present, aware of a single case of any charge that unless the Lord Advocate held out having been made of abuse or misuse very considerable expectations that im- of power on his part. The Committee provements would be made in the Bill reported thatin Committee, he should feel obliged to vote with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Montrose (Mr. Baxter). THE LORD ADVOCATE said, that he had been asked by the right hon. Gentleman who had moved that this Bill should not be committed, what was the necessity for its being introduced at all.. Now, the necessity arose out of a Report made by a Committee of the House of Commons, who sat for three "The general evidence with regard to the Board of Supervision was favourable to its con stitution and to the influence which it had in 66 years, and went at very considerable length into all the questions connected with the administration of the Poor Law in Scotland. He regretted much that the House had not had the benefit of hearing some observations from Gentlemen who were still Members of the House, and who reported in favour of the Committee's Resolutions; but he hoped that they should still have the opportunity of hearing the evidence of those hon. Members with regard to the recommendations of this Committee. But he might say with regard to what had been represented as one of the leading questions connected with this Billsent in cases of settlement, where the parties namely, the enlargement of the powers can agree as to the facts. This practice your of the Board of Supervision-that the Committee think might be advantageously made Committee went into the examination of part of the statutory duty of the Board." the subject with probably a feeling That was the passage to which the hon. rather opposed to the mode of adminis- Member for Paisley (Mr. W. Holms) retration by the Board of Supervision; | ferred when he said that the Committee Suggestions have been made for giving larger powers to the Board, and more especially for making it a final arbiter in all cases of settlement with a view of saving law expenses. Your Committee do not think that any advantage is likely to accrue from adopting such a proposal, and they entertain serious doubts whether it would really have the effect of of the Board does now act as arbiter by condiminishing the legal expenses. The Secretary were unfavourable to an enlargement of the power of the Board of Supervision of acting judicially in cases of disputed settlement. The Committee went on to say that "On the whole, the action of the Board of Supervision appears to have secured a considerable amount of uniformity in the administration of the law, but it has no power to vary or recall any minutes either under the 60th or 74th section of the Act, and your Committee think that in this respect the power of the Board should be increased, and that still greater uniformity and an additional check on expenditure might be obtained by means of more frequent inspection by the superintendents, coupled with an efficient system of audit." It was in accordance with that recommendation of the Committee that the power was given to the Board of Supervision to cancel or vary any minute, and the hon. Member for Paisley could not but remember that he himself put down an Amendment to the clause in the Bill requiring the consent of the Secretary of State before any minute was cancelled. He (the Lord Advocate) had no hesitation in saying that such an Amendment as that would not be regarded as hostile to the Bill. The Committee reported in favour of certain matters, and one matter upon which they reported was that there were not sufficient powers given for medical relief in Scotland. Cases of hardship were brought before the Committee showing that really the administration of medical relief was in a very unhappy state in Scotland. For instance, a miserable dole was given to a medical man who was employed in looking after the paupers of the parish. There was no proper provision made for medical relief, and in some cases it turned out that medical men upon whom the burden of attending parties had been imposed had eased the burdens affecting parties who were not properly objects of parochial relief. It therefore became necessary that there should be an increased amount of medical relief, and so essential was this considered by the Poor Law authorities in Scotland, that in the beginning of this year they were inundated by deputations and Petitions, all asking for an increased amount of medical relief, and that they should be placed upon the same footing as England with reference to that matter. Well, when the Government came to consider the matter, they felt that there was a claim for increased relief as regarded The Lord Advocate medical appliances, and that not merely in justice to the ratepayers, but in the interest of the poor themselves, because it had been found in England, and more particularly in Ireland, that where there were proper provisions made for medical relief, there the parties who were paupers not only had their condition much alleviated but the result was that the burdens of the ratepayers became less by reason of the utter prostration which would result from their being neglected having been prevented. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, having applied his mind to the matter, said— very "Here is a Report by the Poor Law ComThey make certain recommendations, and we mittee appointed to consider this very matter. think they should be carried out." Accordingly the Government did adopt the recommendations of the Committee; and if hon. Members would take the trouble to read their Report, they would find that almost all the provisions in this Bill were founded upon the recommendations contained in the Report of the Committee. In fact, there was little or no discretion left to the Government. What he wished the House to bear in mind was that it was a very strong Committee, consisting of about 21 Members, and the result was an almost unanimous approval on their part of the Report that was drawn up. Under these circumstances, what were those entrusted with the preparation of a Bill relating to the administration of the Poor Laws in Scotland to do? Were they not to be guided by the recommendations of such a Committee, and to draw up a Bill upon the lines of its Report? And this was what they had done. He did not hear anything said with reference to the provisions of the Bill, except in so far as it was said to increase the powers of the Board of Supervision. Now, a certain amount of jealousy would always exist in regard to a body which had certain controlling powers over smaller bodies; but there had not been a single suggestion made of an abuse of these powers having taken place at any time. It was necessary that there should be some central body in whom should be vested the administration of the Poor Laws. Such a body existed both in England and Ireland. It was quite true that the President of the Local Government Board had sat in that House; but the Home Secretary was the person to whom | the soundness of those recommendations, the Board of Supervision reported their the accuracy of the facts upon which proceedings, and the Home Secretary they were based; and the judgment and had power to control the Board of Su- the responsibility with regard to that pervision. He ventured to think that must rest with Her Majesty's Governthere was no difficulty whatever in ment and with the House. He said this getting information as to the proceed- particularly, because he declined to get ings of that Board. Since he had held up and defend every clause of this Bill his present office, although not truly a upon its merits, because in reality the member of the Board of Supervision, Report of the Committee arose very he had questions frequently put to him much out of a compromise. He thought with reference to the proceedings of the that it would be unjust to the CommitBoard of Supervision, and he was not tee, under such circumstances, to expect aware that there had been any difficulty them to be answerable for every word in obtaining an answer to these ques- and line of their Report with regard to tions. He thought that the Bill was the main provisions. However, he was framed in the right direction, and it em- quite prepared to take as much of the bodied the most important recommenda- responsibility as his right hon. and tions of the Committee. With regard learned Friend chose to take upon himto mandates, one of the provisions of self. He thought that if there was any the Bill of which complaint had been necessity for this Bill it arose out of the made had been introduced with a view state of things at present existing in to put an end to the system of man- Scotland. The Poor Law was adminisdates. As to the Amendments which tered in such a narrow manner that the had been put upon the Paper, he cer- country was scandalized with it; but tainly should not offer any obstruction the question now was whether in this to many of them, and especially to one Bill they had not run a little too much which had reference to the power of the into the other direction. He rather Board of Supervision to dismiss the thought they had. With regard to the matron or master of the workhouse. system of mandates he should be glad That was a matter capable of adjust- to see it abolished. With respect to ment. The same power existed in Ire- management he did not think it desirland, and he did not think that it should able to divorce from it entirely the occube taken as one of the principles of the pant of the soil, for he regarded that as Bill. It was very desirable that they one of the most important elements of should go into Committee on the Bill, the system. With reference to rating, and the sooner that they did so now the there could be no doubt that the probetter. posal of the Government to pursue the system of deduction was inconsistent with the English law upon the subject, as indeed it was inconsistent with the general principles of the Scotch law also. These, however, were all matters which might very properly be reserved for discussion and arrangement in Com SIR EDWARD COLEBROOKE said, that he was going to respond to the appeal which had been made to him as one of the Members of the late Committee by the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Lord Advocate to say a word on behalf of the Bill; but, at the same time, he must demur to the state-mittee. An attempt had been made to ment with which the right hon. and learned Gentleman commenced his speech, and the commentary by which he followed it up, that the necessity for this Bill arose out of the recommendations of the Committee. It was true that the Committee made certain recommendations; but he had yet to learn that it was a matter of necessity for the House of Commons or for any Government to take up the recommendations made in the Report laid upon the Table of the House. If there was any necessity for this Bill, it must be rested upon throw odium on the Board of Supervision in reference to its composition, and no doubt there were grounds for some of the objections which had been urged in that respect, but he could not agree with all of those objections. Something had been said about the Sheriff's; but it was impossible to say that these gentlemen, paid officers of the State, did not do their duty, and were not to be depended upon in any matter of public importance with which they might be intrusted. As to the odium which had been excited in regard to the in creased powers of the Board of Supervision, the fact was that the Select Committee made no recommendation on the subject. The truth was that the whole question turned on this-whether the House was prepared or not to adopt any additional regulations with regard to out-door relief, and to introduce any changes to remedy the admitted defects of the system as it now existed. For his own part, he believed that the result of the proposals of the Government would be to secure more, instead of to bring about less, independence than there was under the present system. Everything depended on the extent to which the powers of supervision established by the Bill were under regulation; and whatever decision the House might arrive at, he trusted that neither the House nor the Government would err on the other side, and give too much power to the local bodies, for he held it to be a sound principle of local parochial management that these should be under a certain amount of control at all events. There must be some regulations as to administration, and he did not know any other or better way of securing the object in view than by an efficient system of inspection and audit. Holding these opinions, he thought that the Bill was well worth the consideration of the House, and trusted that the House would allow the measure to go into Committee. MR. D. CAMERON moved the Adjournment of the Debate. Motion agreed to. Debate adjourned till Thursday. CIVIL BILL COURTS (IRELAND) BILL. (Mr. Solicitor General for Ireland, Sir Michael Hicks-Beach.) [BILL 82.] SECOND READING. Order for Second Reading read. THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. PLUNKET) moved that the Bill be now read a second time, with the view of a Select Committee being appointed to consider it. the proposition. The Bill was one of the most important relating to Ireland that could be brought before the House. It proposed to revolutionize the whole system of County Courts, and that being the case it ought not to be read a second time in that way without a discussion. The Bill was introduced and read the first time on the 8th February, and had been put down for second reading about 50 times. Yet the discussion had not taken place to this day, and the Government therefore had no right to complain that he objected to it being referred to a Select Committee in this summary manner. To refer the Bill to a Select Committee in July was quite absurd. Most of the Irish Members would not be in the House in July, and it was very important that persons taking an interest in the question should serve on the Committee. He repeated that the Bill involved changes of the most important character. The House would, perhaps, be surprised to hear that the County Courts were now nearly 80 years old. They existed in Ireland before they existed in England. They were indebted to the Irish Parliament, which they were so much in the habit of abusing, for the first establishment of Civil Courts in Ireland, and they were now exercising a jurisdiction under an Act passed in 1796. They were the cheapest Courts in any part of the United Kingdom. They had given universal satisfaction to the people in Ireland, and he believed there were no Courts in Ireland in which people had such confidence as they had in the Civil Courts. And it being ten minutes before Seven of the clock, the Debate was adjourned till this day. The House suspended its sitting at Seven of the clock. The House resumed its sitting at Nine of the clock. CHINA.-RESOLUTION. MR. RICHARD, in rising to move "That, having regard to the unsatisfactory nature of our relations with China, and to the desirability of placing those relations on a per Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."-(Mr. Solicitor General for Ire-manently satisfactory footing, this House is of land.) SIR COLMAN O'LOGHLEN was sorry to say that he could not agree with Sir Edward Colebrooke opinion that the existing Treaty between the two Countries should be so revised as to promote the interests of legitimate Commerce, and to secure the just rights of the Chinese Government and people," |