mons.

THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDON expressed his concurrence in the Motion.

Motion agreed to.

Select Committee appointed to join with a Committee of the Commons to consider the expediency of making further regulations concerning the admission and practice of Parliamentary agents, and to report their opinion thereon:

the appointment of a Select Committee, I would not be the duty of Her Majesty's and the consequent Message to the Com- Government to take them into consideration at a future time if they should be fortunate enough to carry through Parliament in the present Session the Bill which now stood before their Lordships for second reading. He was aware also that in the opinion of some persons it was advisable to consolidate all the Acts relating to Merchant Shipping; but he could not help thinking that a Bill by which that consolidation might be attempted-involving as it would the consideration of some 700 or 800 clauses -would open up many points on which great difference of opinion would be found to exist, and consequently that to embark in such an undertaking at present would be to seriously endanger the passing of any measure relating to the subject during the present Session. Their Lordships would bear in mind that though this Bill had been carried through the other House with all the despatch possible in so grave a matter, and on which there had been so many and such lengthened discussions, it was now the 23rd day of June when he was

The following Lords named members of the Committee:

M. Lansdowne.
E. Doncaster.
E. Camperdown.

L. Redesdale.
L. Penrhyn.

And a message sent to the Commons to acquaint them that this House has appointed a committee of five Lords to join with a committee of the Commons "To consider the expediency of making further regulations concerning the admission and practice of Parliamentary agents, and to report their opinion thereon; and to request that the Commons will be pleased to appoint an equal number of members to be joined with the members of this House.

MERCHANT SHIPPING BILL-(No. 99.) moving the second reading in their

(The Lord President.)

SECOND READING.

Lordships' House. Again, he thought he was quite justified in saying that no subject required greater caution in legis

Order of the Day for the Second lation than this of our Mercantile MaReading, read.

rine, in which so many interests were THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND mixed up, and which so concerned the GORDON, in moving that the Bill be trade and commerce of the country. now read the second time, said, that Certain statistics would show their Lordthe object of the Bill, which had come ships and the country the magnitude of up from the other House of Parliament the capital and labour embarked in our after having been subjected to very shipping trade. First as to the value of careful consideration and amendment, the Imports and Exports for the year:was to provide additional security for In 1875 the total value of Imports and the lives of our sailors from the avoid- Exports into and from the United able risks which attended their calling. Kingdom was: - Imports - merchanHe was perfectly aware that in dealing dize, £373,939,577; gold and silver, with the matters embraced in this Bill-£33,264,789. Exports merchandize, namely, the questions of unseaworthy ships and of overloading-the Government were only dealing with a part of a very large question; but that part was by no means an unimportant part, and they felt that it was better to confine themselves to it for the present rather than to extend the area and operation of the Bill to a large extent. Discipline, wages, advance notes, insurance, and other matters of a kindred character were branches of the question on which, no doubt, legislation was much needed; and he was far from saying that it

British and Irish produce, £223, 465,963; Foreign and Colonial ditto, £58,146,360; gold and silver, £27,628,042. Total, £716,444,731. The total tonnage of shipping entered and cleared, with cargoes and in ballast at ports in the United Kingdom in the foreign trade and in the coasting trade was:-Foreign Trade-Entered, 19,039,928 tons cargo, 3,653,238 tons ballast-together, 22,693,163 tons; cleared, 20,413,739 tons cargo, 3,169,936 tons ballast-together, 23,583,675 tons. Coasting Trade-Entered, 22,944,265 tons cargo,

10,968,737 tons ballast

33,913,002 tons; cleared,

together, | justice prompted him to bear testi20,674,934 mony to the readiness with which tons cargo, 8,906,654 tons ballast- the Permanent Secretary (Mr. Thomas together, 29,581,588 tons. Total, Henry Farrer) and staff of the Board 83,072,866 tons cargo, 26,698,562 tons of Trade carried out as far as in them ballast-together, 109,771,428 tons. The lay every effort in the direction of number of men in British ships in 1874, affording greater security to the lives the date of the latest Return, was exposed to sea risks. He did this be203,606. This was exclusive of masters. cause he had read most unjust charges If the frequency of the voyages made by of red-tapeism which were levelled some ships was taken into account, the against these gentlemen. Well, in 1871 number of men annually exposed to the the noble Lord opposite (Lord Carlingdangers of the sea was very large in- ford) brought in and carried a small deed. He might remark that in 1872 measure. In 1873 the publication of a the number of emigrants was 251,871; remarkable book by Mr. Plimsoll on and, besides, there were the ordinary the Mercantile Marine and on Shippassengers not included in any of these wrecks and other casualties by sea Returns. Parliament possessed one led to the issuing of a Royal Commisgreat advantage in dealing with this sion; but without waiting for the Resubject arising from the fact that the port of that Commission the noble Lord question itself was entirely removed brought in and carried a Bill, to from the arena of Party conflicts, and which, had the feelings of the country they could approach it with a freedom not been excited on this subject, it of consideration which they were not might have been difficult for him to always able to apply to questions which obtain the assent of Parliament. In excited strong political feeling. It had 1874 the Royal Commission reported; long been a subject of legislation by but there was no time for any legislaevery Party that had been in power. tion in the Session of that year. He Commencing 40 years ago, successive now came to 1875, when his right hon. Governments had introduced Shipping Friend the President of the Board of Bills. In 1836 a Committee was ap- Trade brought in a measure which he pointed to report on the cause of Wrecks, was unable to carry in its entirety. That and in 1843 there was another Com-fact having been perceived in time, his mittee on the same subject, most of right hon. Friend towards the close of whose recommendations had been since the Session of 1875 introduced a smaller carried out. In 1846 there was im- Bill-one dealing with some of the more portant legislation as to wreck and sal-important points on which legislation vage, and as to the survey of steamers. was required. That Bill passed into an In 1847 and 1848, and 1849 the Emi- Act; but the Act was only temporary grants and Passenger Acts were amended. in its character-it would expire on In 1849 the Navigation Laws were re- the 1st of October in the present year. pealed; in 1850 the Marine Depart- The experience of its working had ment of the Board of Trade was estab-proved of great advantage to the Golished; and in 1852 the Emigrants Acts were consolidated. In 1854 a most important measure of consolidation was brought in by the noble Viscount opposite (Viscount Cardwell) and carried through both Houses. Subsequently, that Act was amended in consequence of the Report of Mr. Lindsay's Committee; in 1867 Mr. Milner Gibson brought in a Bill; and in 1867 the Board of Trade introduced a measure for providing crews with better accommodation on board ship. In 1868 he himself had a Consolidating Bill drawn and prepared, but the country was deprived of his services before he could carry it through. And here a sense of

The Duke of Richmond and Gordon

vernment in the preparation of the present Bill, which repealed the Act of 1875 and also repealed so much of the Acts of 1871 and 1873 as related to unseaworthy ships. The Bill now under their Lordships' consideration would contain the whole of the law relating to unseaworthy ships. Its first important clause was Clause 4, which re-enacted in a permanent form a provision of the Bill of 1875, and laid down the principle that it was a breach of the Criminal Law for any one to send or to attempt to send to sea a British ship in such unseaworthy condition that the life of any person was likely to be thereby endangered-to do so was declared a

misdemeanour. Although it might be | Clause 19 contained a provision respecttrue that there had not been a great ing the stowage of grain cargoes similar number of convictions under that pro- to those contained in the Act of last vision in the Act of 1875, the clause year; and Clauses 20 and 21 contained might have been very beneficial in its provisions of considerable importance deterrent effects. Clause 5 provided for with regard to deck cargoes. Clause 20 the obligation of the shipowner to the provided that if any British or foreign crew that he would use all reasonable other than home trade ships, as defined means to insure the seaworthiness of the by the Merchant Shipping Act, 1854, ship for the voyage contemplated :-it carried as deck cargo, timber, stores, or made that obligation a part of every other goods, all dues payable on the contract, whether express or implied. ship's tonnage should be payable as if The clause, consequently, gave the rela- there were added to the ship's registives of a lost crew a right to proceed tered tonnage the tonnage of the space under Lord Campbell's Act. Clause 6 occupied by such goods at the time at gave the Board of Trade power to de- which such dues became payable. tain ships if, by reason of the defective Clause 21, which imposed a penalty on condition of her hull, equipments, or ships carrying deck loads of timber in machinery, or of improper loading, a winter, was not in the Bill when first ship was unfit to proceed to sea without introduced in the other House. The danger to human life, and prescribed point with which it dealt was one of the mode of procedure in respect of de- considerable difficulty, and the Governtention. By Clause 7 a new Court, ment were rather unwilling to touch it; called a Court of Survey, would be con- but it was suggested that the difficulty stituted, to which the owner or master might be overcome, and it was urged, of a ship detained might promptly ap- and not unreasonably, that as the Canapeal against the action of the officers of dian Legislature had found itself able the Board of Trade. The establishment to deal with it, Her Majesty's Governof this Court would get rid of the delay ment might deal with it in the same which arose in getting certain cases way. Accordingly, the Government heard by local Courts of Admiralty. framed a clause strictly in accordance Clause 10 would make the Board of with the Canadian precedent. In the Trade liable to the shipowners for Canadian clause an exception was made damages and costs for unjustifiable de- in favour of deck loads only 3 feet high tention of a ship. Clause 11 was an and composed of light timber. important one. Up to last year the Government introduced that exception only means by which seamen could in Clause 21, and on one division mainraise the question of the unseaworthi- tained it: but on a subsequent division ness of a ship was by first deserting her. it was struck out by a majority of 18 or Clause 11 would enable them to make something like that: therefore, the Goa complaint, and have the seaworthiness vernment were not responsible for the of the ship inquired into, without any clause as it at present stood. Clauses 22, such process; the complainant giving 23, and 24 provided that there should security for costs. Clause 13 remedied be deck and load lines; but, following a wrong which had been sometimes ex- the Report of the Royal Commission, perienced. By the Merchant Shipping they did not define what that line was Acts and the Passengers Acts, passenger to be-that was left to the shipowner. or emigrant ships could not proceed to Clause 25, making the provisions of this sea without certificates of the proper Bill as to detention applicable to foreign officers as to their sufficiency in every ships, was inserted during the passage of respect required by those Acts; and the Bill through the House of Commons. these certificates had sometimes been It was resolved to put British ships and refused this clause gave to the ship- foreign ships loading in British ports owner a right of appeal to the Court of under the same regulations as to overSurvey constituted by the Bill. Clause 14 loading. Accordingly, this was inserted; empowered the Board of Trade to refer but a sub-section of the clause provided difficult cases, on appeal, to scientific that when a foreign ship had been provireferees. Clauses 15 to 18 contained sionally detained for over-loading a copy special provisions in relation to pas- of the order or provisional order of desenger steamers and emigrant ships. tention should be served on the Consular VOL. CCXXX. [THIRD SERIES.]

M

The

officer of the State to which the ship be- | liberty of expressing an opinion that longed, who might appoint a person to there was no reason why it should not inspect the ship in company with the be a permanent measure. He was glad officer of the Board of Trade. If they the Government had proceeded on the agreed the ship would be released or same lines as those on which that Act detained as the case might be; if they was framed, and had not proposed a differed the action of the Board of Trade general and compulsory survey of all was sustained, but an appeal was given ships. The Royal Commission went into to the master or owner to the Court of the merit of the two systems, and gave Survey. Subsequent clauses appointed its approbation to that adopted by the Wreck Commissioners for investigating late Government. He agreed in the noble shipping casualties, and gave powers for Duke's estimate of the value of certain the summoning of assessors in cases improvements introduced by the Bill, where special knowledge was required; especially that giving a ready and comand laid down rules of procedure. The petent Court of Appeal, and that appowers of the Commissioners were ex- pointing Wreck Commissioners with entended to inquiries into cases of stranded larged powers of inquiry. With respect or missing ships. Among the "Miscel- to the question of survey, he should like laneous" clauses he might mention two to call attention to the provisions as to -the 33rd, which provided that if the costs and compensation in Clauses 10 and Government of any foreign State was 11. As the Bill now stood, in a case in desirous that any of the provisions of which it should be decided that a ship the Merchant Shipping Acts, 1854 to was, as a matter of fact, not in an un1876, should apply to the ships of that safe state, the Board of Trade would be State, Her Majesty might by Order in liable to all the costs and to compensaCouncil direct that they should so apply: tion for detention. If he was not mis-and the 34th, by which the Act was taken, that was not the form in which declared not to apply to ships on inland the clauses were originally introduced by waters of Canada. The principle of the the Government. It was obvious that it measure was to provide, as far as pos- might be the duty of the Board to desible, for the security of the ships en- tain a ship for any reasonable and progaged in the commerce of this country, bable cause, and yet that the result of without relieving the shipowner of the the inquiries might be that, as a matter responsibility of seeing that his ship did of fact, the ship was not so unsafe as to not go to sea in an unseaworthy state. warrant her detention under the Act; These were the principal enactments of but it did not follow that the Departthe Bill. He did not wish to exaggerate ment of the Executive which performed the probable effects of this legislation; that duty should be bound to pay the but he thought he was justified in whole cost and the whole compensation hoping that as it was framed after the for that detention. He thought it a Government, Parliament, and the coun- question whether that was not going too try had given such long and earnest at- far, and whether it would not hamper tention to the question, it would conthe hands of the Board of Trade. Under siderably mitigate the avoidable dangers Clause 11, relating to complaints made of the sea without doing injury to or un- by sailors of the unseaworthiness and necessarily interfering with the shipping danger of their ship, if the complaint trade and the commercial interests of turned out to be inaccurate, and that the this Kingdom. ship was not at the time of such complaint unsafe within the meaning of the

Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2." Act, the complainant would be liable to --(The Lord President.)

LORD CARLINGFORD said, there was little to be said about the Bill, important as it was, because, so far as it was directly intended to protect life at sea, it substantially embodied the provisions of the temporary Act of last year. When that Act was under consideration in their Lordships' House he took the The Duke of Richmond and Gordon

pay to the Board of Trade all such costs and compensation as the Board had incurred. But he thought the sailors should not be liable to pay costs and compensation in a case where there was reasonable and probable cause for detention, although in the end it might turn out that the ship was not so unsafe as to warrant her detention. This was a more important matter under this measure

than it was under any former Act, be- | the ship was loaded. The date adopted, cause the newly-constructed Court of prohibiting deck loads between the 1st Appeal, if it were brought into opera- October and the 16th March, was partion, would inevitably create many causes ticularly open to question. It was taken of delay and large claims for compensa- from the Canadian Act, and might be tion, which might be much greater than correct in relation to the Atlantic trade; the costs of the proceeding. He thought but it certainly was not correct in regard the Government would do well to modify to trade with Norway and other Eurothis part of the Bill by inserting that this pean countries. It was imagined by liability should not be incurred except some persons that the Imperial Parliawhere the complaint was made and the ment had not still a legal right to legisship detained "without reasonable and late for the Colonies; but the result of probable cause.' He now wished to say the very able controversy which had a few words as to that part of the Bill been carried on in the public Press more which dealt with foreigners and with than in Parliament, and which he prethe Colonies. Foreigners were affected sumed no one in that House would atby the Bill in two ways-and he might tempt to revive, had shown that it was say at once that, whether right or wrong, illusory to suppose that the Imperial that was an extremely novel piece of Parliament did not still possess a right legislation. As far as he knew, it was to legislate for the Colonies. He doubted quite unknown to our law, and he whether Canada wished to deprive her thought it likely to raise many doubtful ships of the enormous advantages which questions. The Government would pro- they now possessed as British ships. bably admit that the clauses dealing But while the right of the Imperial Parwith foreigners were not introduced into liament to legislate for Canada was unthe Bill with the object of saving doubted, the exercise of that right was a life on board foreign ships, because the very different thing. It was a right Government could not feel responsible which should be exercised only with the for the lives of foreign seamen. These greatest caution. With regard to deck clauses were introduced entirely for the loading, the Canadian law, which till sake of putting upon a foreign shipowner now we had looked up to with satisfaca weight similar to that which was put tion and admiration, was satisfied with upon his British rival. A foreigner was saying that deck cargoes from the 1st of affected by the Bill in two ways-first, October to the 16th of March should be when he attempted to leave a British prohibited, save and except deck loads port in a ship overloaded or improperly not exceeding 3 feet high and consisting loaded; and, secondly, when he came of light timber. That Act had been in into a British port with a deck load operation for some time, and he was induring certain months in the year, or formed that ships built and loaded in exceeded the limits laid down by the accordance with its provisions were perBill. The case of leaving a British port fectly safe. This was the original proseemed to him to be less difficult than the vision of the clause; but in consequence others, but he could very well conceive of the defeat of the Government on this that officials of the Board of Trade would proposal, as mentioned by the noble find considerable difficulty in using the Duke, the clause had assumed its prepowers entrusted to them, and that inter- sent shape, and our law came into direct national complications might arise. If collision with the law of Canada on this we imagined what was likely to happen matter. Such a conflict of laws should -namely, the detention of an American not be allowed to arise without such a ship at Liverpool, while a British ship at necessity as he did not believe existed that port was allowed to proceed on her in the present case. He hoped the Govoyage, he believed that international vernment would amend the Bill in this difficulties would arise, and he should like particular. He wished to know how to know what view the Foreign Office Clause 31, which authorized the detention and the noble Earl (Earl Derby) took of overladen ships, was to be enforced in of that matter. In the case of a foreign foreign ports where no machinery for vessel arriving at a British port the diffi- carrying its provisions into effect existed. culty would be still greater. There the The clause enabled certain officers to deoffence created by the Bill was an offence tain a ship, and if the master proceeded committed in the foreign country where to sea in defiance of such intervention he