Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Goschen) said that if flogging were House enthusiastically defends a punabolished it would be necessary to resort ishment he designates as detestable. to more revolting modes of punishment; but he had omitted to specify the punishments to which he referred, so that the House might have an opportunity of forming its own opinion on the subject. LORD CHARLES BERESFORD was of opinion that it was a good thing that captains of ships should have the power of flogging. Seventeen years ago when he joined the Service as a Midshipman flogging was common for all sorts of offences, and small acts of insubordination, but now the reverse was the rule. The hon. Member for Leicester had spoken of the Returns of punishments not being so great as they used to be, but he had not hit upon the real cause, which was that offences were not now nearly so numerous as formerly, and the men were so very much improved. They now tried to teach them instead of driving them. He was glad of this, but he should be sorry to see the power abolished altogether. The fact that only some seven men were flogged last year out of about 28,000 showed that that form of punishment was not abused, and he believed that its existence exercised a wholesome effect on the Service. Indeed, the men would probably regret the abolition of flogging as much as anybody. When men did not go smartly about their duty, he had sometimes heard old blue-jackets regret that they could not get a dozen lashes for it as in the good old days. It was a great mistake to suppose that the abolition of flogging would stop desertion or induce more men to enter the Service. It would do nothing of the sort, for what was wanted was a little more pay. MR. P. A. TAYLOR, in reply, said: In one thing, Sir, I think the 'outside public will agree on reading the report of this debate-that when the two front benches do agree, their unanimity is wonderful. I think I can anticipate the mode in which people will speak of the debate to-night, and I think I can assure the right hon. Gentleman of one thing that they have made up their minds upon, that they cannot understand the mysteries which attach to officialism. The right hon. Gentleman has declined to do that which he says when done will be a happy day for the Navy, and the right hon. Gentleman on this side of the Main Question put. The House divided:-Ayes 62; Noes 120 Majority 58. He SIR THOMAS CHAMBERS called attention to the subject of Civil Service trading, and moved for a Select Committee to inquire into the matter. was encouraged to do so by the reception which previous Motions had met with from the House. The Civil Service Supply Association turned over per annum £1,000,000; the Army and Navy Co-operative Society, £500,000 per annum; the Haymarket Association, £750,000; and, altogether, more than £3,000,000 was received and turned over every year by such associations in the metropolis alone. It was obvious, therefore, that they were diverting trade from ordinary retail channels. The question, therefore, was whether it was co-operation in the fair sense of the word, or whether it was a gigantic system of joint stock trading. He maintained it was the latter Notice taken, that 40 Members were not present; House counted, and 40 Members not being present, House adjourned at a quarter after Twelve o'clock. to the Peerage by the death of his brother, Lord Harlech. This amounted practically to the refusal of permission to this officer to become a candidate for the vacant seat. He did not wish unfairly to blame the Ministry in this matter, and he did not charge them with having sent orders to Newbridge to place obstacles in the way of this officer proceeding to the West of Ireland because he was opposed to them; but to a certain extent the Government were, he thought, responsible. He knew that the Secretary of State for War could not be present that day, because they knew that the right hon. Gentleman had had an engagement of several days' standing to go to Shoeburyness to witness Artillery experiments. But on Monday the Mi CAPTAIN NOLAN rose to ask the Se-nistry were aware that this officer had cretary of State for War, If any Officer stationed at Newbridge had been refused, verbally or in writing, leave to contest an Irish constituency; and was this refusal on account of his politics? MR. GATHORNE HARDY not being present in his place, and no Answer being given CAPTAIN NOLAN said, that as he had received no Answer, and was not likely to receive one, he need hardly apologize for moving the adjournment of the House in order that he might explain the circumstances of the case, and the reasons that influenced him in giving Notice of the Question. The constituency of the county Leitrim had before them at the last General Election three candidatesone a supporter of the Government, and the other two opponents. One of those opposed to the Government was returned; the other, Captain O'Beirne, actually had more votes than the supporter of the Government, but he was not returned, some of the voters being disqualified by the Returning Officer on an alleged informality caused by his own subordinates improperly and informally marking the voting papers. He mentioned this to show that the gentleman to whom he was about to allude (Captain O'Beirne) was a bona fide and substantial candidate. That gentleman was an officer of the Army, and at the present moment was quartered at Newbridge. Now everyone knew that the representation of that county was practically vacant, though the writ had not been moved by the elevation of a supporter of the Government, Mr. Ormsby Gore, been practically refused leave to contest the vacancy, and they then had the means of influencing the military authorities in Ireland who had the power of granting him leave. In these days there was very rapid communication by telegraph, and the Government ought to have known how to act without loss of time; and had he telegraphed at once to Ireland, he might have had an answer in three or four hours' time; but it appeared that an answer had only reached them at 11.30 that day stating that that officer had applied for leave from the 22nd to the 29th, which would be granted. That meant that there had been a delay of several days; for part of which the Government were responsible, and he could only say he should be sorry if the Party with which he was connected gained an electioneering advantage at such a price. He regretted that there was no Minister present to answer his Question, which referred to a political rather than a military matter. He would conclude by moving that the House do now adjourn. MR. SULLIVAN seconded the Motion. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn.". (Captain Nolan.) SIR COLMAN O'LOGHLEN presumed the object of the Motion was to enable his hon. and gallant Friend (Captain Nolan) to make his statement, and if possible to elicit some explanation from some Member of the Govern ment. He saw one of Her Majesty's Ministers sitting on the front Government Bench (Sir James Elphinstone). If that hon. Gentleman did not afford some explanation, he should recommend his hon. and gallant Friend (Captain Nolan) to ask permission of the House to withdraw his Motion for the adjournment, and to bring the subject forward again to-morrow, when the Secretary of State for War would be in his place. man be defeated. It was not through any fault of his own or of his supporters that he was not returned at the last election, but simply because the Sheriff's officers had put marks on voting papers. MR. GREENE deprecated the practice of moving the adjournment of the House on every trivial occasion-a proceeding which had been more frequently resorted to this Session than he had ever known before. He sympathized with the hon. and gallant Member for SIR JAMES ELPHINSTONE said, Galway (Captain Nolan), and regarded he had been so pointedly alluded to by the question as one of considerable the right hon. and learned Baronet that importance; but he thought that as he could not avoid rising in answer to his the hon. and gallant Member knew appeal; but the fact was that he had no that the Secretary of State for War knowledge of the transaction they were would be absent that day he ought to discussing, and his geographical know- have put off his Question till to-morrow. ledge of the part of Ireland under dis- The candidate referred to would not cussion was very limited. But he thought have suffered by a day's delay, and he that, instead of bringing that matter might by telegraph have ordered the before the House, more especially on a cars " for bringing up his voters if he Wednesday, when Ministers were en- wanted to engage them so early. It was gaged in important business in their not fair that a grave charge of that kind offices, it would have been much better should be made in the House when no if that question had been postponed one was there to answer it, so that it until it could be properly answered. The might be represented by telegraph all hon. and gallant Member had acknow- over Ireland that the Government were ledged that he was aware the Secretary intriguing against that particular candiof State for War was at Shoeburyness date. No Government in their senses on public business. He would only add, would be parties to so foolish a proceedwithout reference to this particular case, ing, and to bring forward such an accuthat he trusted that the number of mili-sation in so unfair a manner was like tary Gentlemen on full pay in that attacking a man in the dark. House might not be increased, and that the Conservative candidate at Leitrim might succeed. MR. SULLIVAN said, he had no doubt the hon. Baronet very earnestly desired that a Conservative might succeed in getting in for Leitrim county; but he (Mr. Sullivan) did not do the Ministry the injustice of thinking they would try to snatch a petty advantage by finesse and manoeuvring. In an election contest an early start was half the battle, and it was well known that if one party could so manœuvre as to keep their opponent out of the county for five or six days, they could secure all the cars and the solicitors and laugh at him when he entered the field late. He did not for a moment suppose that the question affected the Secretary for War; but it was very well known that unless someone stood between Captain O'Beirne and the constituency of Leitrim for four or five of the most precious days in the campaign, by no means could that gentle 66 MR. SPEAKER said, it was an unusual course for an hon. Member to move the adjournment of the House on a Question, when those who alone were able to give explanations on the subject were not in their places. MR. MITCHELL HENRY maintained that his hon. and gallent Friend (Captain Nolan) was perfectly justified in the course he had taken. His hon. and gallant Friend had brought the matter to the notice of the Secretary for War on Monday last. Having consulted some of his friends, they advised him to go at once to the head of the War Department, instead of making it a public matter, in the full expectation that the right hon. Gentleman would at once telegraph and desire that the proper amount of leave should be given to Captain O'Beirne. Nothing of the kind, however, appeared to have been done, and then his hon. and gallant Friend put his Question on the Paper for the purpose of eliciting an Answer, 44 hours having elapsed since he first brought the subject under the notice of the War Office authorities. The question whether the Ministry had impeded the nomination of a gentleman for a seat in that House was one of constitutional importance, and could only properly be brought forward on a Motion for adjournment. He submitted, indeed, that the conduct of his hon. and gallant Friend in the matter had not only been constitutional, but most conciliatory towards the Government. Although the writ for the election had not yet been issued, the Government candidate was already in the field, and it was perfectly idle under the circumstances to say that his hon. and gallant Friend had at all acted unfairly. CAPTAIN NOLAN said, he had given notice to the Financial Secretary of the War Department that he would ask the Question to-day. He had received from the hon. Gentleman a note dated 11.30 that morning, stating that no news had been received from Ireland; but a few minutes afterwards he understood that seven days' leave had been given Captain O'Beirne. This he could not but consider as wholly inadequate to the occasion; but as no end would be served by dividing the House under the circumstances, he begged to withdraw his Motion. Motion, by leave, withdrawn. BANNS OF MARRIAGE (SCOTLAND) BILL. resides. Under the laws of England and Ireland this is not so, and any person who chooses can lodge his notice with the district registrar, and obtain the requisite certificate or licence for the celebration of the marriage. But in Scotland a religious marriage can only be celebrated after proclamation of banns in the Established Church, and any minister-Presbyterian, Roman Catholic, or Episcopal-celebrating a marriage except upon production of a certificate of such proclamation of banns, is liable, according to Acts still unrepealed, to banishment furth the kingdom under pain of death, and to such pecuniary and corporal pains as the Lords of the Privy Council shall be pleased to inflict. The only exception from this rule that no regular marriage can be celebrated without the proclamation of banns, is to be found in the Jewish communion and the Society of Friends, in whose case the necessity for the customary proclamation of banns has been by statute done away with. Before proceeding further it may be well to explain that any person may be married without banns who chooses to dispense with the services of a clergyman and content himself with an irregular marriage. But happily now-a-days irregular marriages are considered more or less discreditable, and few persons care to incur the stigma attaching to a marriage which, however binding, has to be registered as irregular. Persons may, to speak popularly, be married by a Sheriff or by a (Dr. Cameron, Mr. Baxter, Mr. Barclay, Mr. registrar, but no marriage can be regis M'Laren, Mr. Edward Jenkins.) [BILL 27.] SECOND READING. Order for Second Reading read. DR. CAMERON*: The object of the Bill which I shall to-day ask the House to read a second time is to amend the law of Scotland on a point in relation to which it is admitted on every side-by those who oppose this Bill as well as by those who support it-to stand urgently in need of reform. English and Irish Members will be surprised to learn that no person, of whatever religion he may be, can in Scotland be married by a clergyman without submitting himself to what has been held by the highest Courts of Law to be a sacred ordinance of the Established Presbyterian Church, and having the banns of marriage published in the church of the parish in which he Mr. Mitchell Henry tered as regular which has not been celebrated by a minister after the publication of banns in an Established Church. Were it only irregular marriages contracted before a Sheriff or registrar and subsequently registered which were recognized by the law of Scotland, this stigma would not attach. But in the great majority of cases irregular marriages, whether arising out of verba de præsenti, habit and repute, or promise cum copula, are never registered at all, and there is so much difficulty in proving them, that not only do constant disputes spring out of them respecting successions, but in cases of bigamy and desertion arising in connection with them, the laws for the prevention of these very serious crimes against society cannot be enforced. Whatever diversity of opinion, therefore, exists as to the desirability of continuing senior Member for Edinburgh (Mr. M'Laren,) who was one of the witnesses referred to, to encourage "a kind of concubinage which is called marriage, and perhaps is intended to be marriage' to recognize irregular marriages, it is universally agreed throughout Scotland that everything should be done to encourage regular marriages, and to render these irregular marriages as little fre--to encourage, I may add, a form of quent as possible. Now the existing irregular marriage of the very worst practice as regards the proclamation of description. If we look for any counterbanns has directly the opposite tendency. balancing advantages in the present In the first place, while any person who system, we look in vain. The object of has resided three weeks in Scotland can the proclamation of banns is, of course, contract an irregular marriage, no per- to secure publicity, and to prevent the son can contract a regular one who has contraction of bigamous and illegal not lived in the parish in the church of marriages. The plan at present pursued which the banns are proclaimed during was adopted in Roman Catholic times, the preceding six weeks. Then the charges when, and for long after Roman Catholiare high. A Return presented to the cism had given way to Presbyterianism, House within the last few months, on the it doubtless answered its purpose exMotion of my hon. Friend the Member cellently. There were then no large for Dumfries (Mr. Noel), shows that the centres of population such as have since fees paid for proclamations during the sprung into existence. There was then year 1874 amounted to upwards of no machinery by means of which so £17,000, and that the average cost was effective a publicity could be attained. 108. 10d. per proclamation, or about The people of Scotland almost in one twice that sum per marriage. In most body belonged to the Established Church. parishes it is customary to charge a No regular marriage could be celebrated certain sum for the regular proclama- but by a minister of the Established tion, on three successive Sundays, a con- Church, and the session clerk, to whom siderably larger one for the ceremony was entrusted the direction of the proif compressed into two Sundays, and clamation of banns, was also practically a still larger one for it if compressed the registrar of marriages. Moreover, into one. In a few parishes no in those days the kirk sessions were such distinction is made, and in a few, entrusted with the charge of the poor, proclamations extending over three and the fees received for proclamations Sundays are charged at the highest went towards their maintenance. Now rate; but even the lowest rate in many every one of these circumstances has parishes is as high as 10s. or 128., and been changed. The Established Church in a case of a bride and bridegroom who of Scotland no longer comprises a majority may have the misfortune to reside in of the population. Ministers of every separate parishes where such a high denomination are allowed to celebrate minimum is fixed, it is impossible to ob- regular marriages, the registration of tain a regular marriage without the pre- marriages is conducted by the civil liminary disbursement of £1, or even registrar, and the proportion of the fees more for proclamation fees. Through- which finds its way into the pockets of out Scotland, the average minimum the poor is infinitesimally small. As to charge shown in the Return is somewhat the uselessness of the ceremony, I might lower, but I do not think I am above quote abundant evidence; but as this the mark when I say that where persons point is hardly likely to be disputed, it about to marry reside in separate will, I think, sufficiently support my parishes, the average minimum fees for position to quote a single sentence from proclamation, which they must pay if the Report of the Marriage Laws Comthey wish to be married regularly, missioners before referred to. In Engamounts to between 10s. and 12s. 6d. land they say the practice of proclaimNow the result of this high charge, ing the bannsaccording to the concurrent testimony of a large number of most reliable witnesses before the Marriage Laws Commissioners of 1865, is to encourage concubinage, or, to speak more correctly, and to use the language of my hon. Friend the "Is practically useless and inconvenient in very populous places. In Scotland, being confined by law to the Established Church, and being performed three times over on a single Sunday, just before the commencement of divine service, it can be of very little, if any, |