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compulsion laid down by the Act of 1870. | He therefore hoped that they would not be interfered with or disturbed in the good in which they were engaged, and that the noble Lord would pause before he accepted the Amendment. They were all grateful for the courtesy and kindness shown by the noble Lord when he introduced the Bill, but now he said that he would accept an Amendment which they must regard with extreme hostility. SIR HENRY JACKSON remarked that hon. Members on his side did not seem to have even yet succeeded in making the noble Lord understand the ground upon which they so strongly objected to the Amendment. The noble Lord seemed to treat it as a mere matter of administrative detail, and called it a small affair, whereas the Opposition considered that a most important principle was involved. That principle was the continuation or the abolition of school boards. The noble Lord disclaimed all intention of attacking school boards, but he put it to the noble Lord, did he seriously think that the effect of the Bill would be to encourage them? On that side of the House they felt that the very opposite would be the result. The adoption of the clause would be a departure, not only from the principle of the Bill, but also a departure from the representations made to the House on the second reading. Did the noble Lord think that he would have had the majority that he did had it been known that there was to be a direct attack upon school boards? If the noble Lord did not actually provide for the extinction of school boards by the action of the Department, he at least provided the means of self-extinction known in Eastern countries as the "happy despatch." It was stated by hon. Gentlemen opposite that the clause would apply only to school boards which had no schools and no property, and the noble Lord asserted that he had much sympathy with school boards which had done their work well and were efficient. But was the division of school boards into those which were efficient and those which had property an exhaustive division? What about such school boards as those of Burnley and Stockport, which had no schools? He feared it was an attempt to reverse the policy of the Act of 1870. Gentlemen on that (the Opposition) side had not yet forgotten the metaphors used by the noble Lord in introducing his first Mr. A. Brown

Endowed Schools Bill, when he spoke of leading on the forces of the Establishment against the entrenchments of the enemy, by which term he referred to Nonconformists. That language of the noble Lord had united as one man what was then a divided minority, and in that contest they were victorious all along the line. He would now tell the noble Lord that, by every constitutional means, they were determined to oppose the passing of the clause. He hoped that the Government would all remember the lesson of their Endowed Schools Bill. Possibly the Prime Minister might repent himself on this occasion and be induced to read the proposed Amendment. If he were to do so, and to find now as he did then that it was perfectly unintelligible, he would materially expedite the passing of the Bill. But the noble Lord had himself found that there was no necessity for the clause, and that all that it could effect might be done by resorting to the simplest legal fiction, so that surely he might persuade the hon. Member for South Leicestershire to allow this bone of contention to be taken away, by which means, he believed, that business would be greatly facilitated, and that a soreness would be removed from the minds of many which was quite incommensurate with any advantage which hon. Members opposite could expect to gain from the passing of the clause.

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MR. ANDERSON said, the noble Lord (Viscount Sandon) had pointed out the contrast between the somewhat animated aspect of the debate at present and the happy calm which pervaded the House only 24 or 36 hours ago; but he must remind the noble Lord that, in the words of a very high authority, great deal had happened since then." Since then the Government had shown the cloven foot, for since then the Amendment of the hon. Member for South Leicestershire had been proposed and had been accepted by the Government; since then, to adopt the metaphor of the noble Lord, the Government expressed their willingness to scout the honourable and permanent matrimony of the school board and prefer a questionable temporary connection. He congratulated the noble Lord on the appositeness of his metaphor, but still more he must congratulate hon. Members opposite on the excellent speech of the hon. Member for

Bury St. Edmund's (Mr. Greene). There | Why did it appear now as a new dishad been a frank honesty in the policy covery? Why was the 13th clause expressed in that speech which was quite postponed to the very end without a refreshing, accustomed as they were to word about their intention of so changthe reticence of Conservative Members ing it? The country would be very apt generally, and it had therefore won those to think that this blow at school boards approving cheers from the Liberal was the real principle and raison d'etre Benches which seemed to delight the of the Bill; that all they had previously hon. Member. He (Mr. Anderson) had done so complacently was only introduchimself for a couple of years been doing tory to this Amendment. They would his best in a humble way to show the conclude that it was kept out of the Bill country that the policy of the Conserva- lest it should unduly alarm their sensitive Party was always retrograde; that bilities and rouse a general opposition. they were always ready to go backward Hon. Members opposite said it was only when they could, and as far as they an attempt to give effect to the popular dared; but his utterances had been weak voice as expressed by majorities. He indeed compared with the bold avowal had been much amused at the sudden of the hon. Member. The House knew appreciation of the popular vote thus the honesty of the hon. Member, and shown by hon. Members opposite. It that when he denounced all that the last was a tenderness quite new to ConservaParliament had done and declared he tive opinion. He would like to know wanted to undo it, that really was what how far they were willing to go in that the hon. Member and his Friends meant; direction. If a narrow majority wanted and it was well that the country should to abolish a municipality as well as a know it, for he was very sure it was not school board, would they be equally for that purpose the country had sent a willing, or would they consent to a ParConservative majority to occupy those liamentary burgh voting its extinction, Benches. He only wished to say a few or when his friends of the Home Rule words to the Committee regarding this party pointed to the large majority across Amendment, from a Scotch point of view. the Channel in favour of a Home Rule He wanted to know if the noble Lord Parliament, would they equally defer to succeeded in carrying the Amendment those majorities? They knew they would would he venture to introduce a similar not; they knew they supported this parmeasure for Scotland? As the House ticular retrograde measure only because was aware, in Scotland they had univer- it seemed to suit their Party views, and sal school boards. He was not prepared now that it had been made apparent that to say that, in all cases, those had worked the Bill was intended as a thoroughly to the entire satisfaction of the people. retrograde measure, the Opposition were In some cases they had not; in some bound to resist it by every constitutional cases they had been unnecessarily hasty means, and to that end he was willing in building expensive schools and spend- to give his assistance. ing too much money; but even that error was only excess of zeal in a right direction, and though many ratepayers might complain, he did not think there was a parish in Scotland that would not reject with contempt any proposal to disboard themselves. And why should it be different in England? He would be apt to think it was not creditable to the intelligence of Englishmen, if he did not know that there was a strong sectarian element underlying the proposal, which accounted for the anxiety of hon. Members opposite to adopt this retrograde measure. The House fully believed in the honest intentions of the noble Lord, but if the Amendment contained a point which he deemed of real importance, why was it not in the Bill?

MR. D. DAVIES opposed the clause. He believed it would have a most injurious influence throughout the country. It went entirely to condemn the Act of 1870. He was not so much afraid of the disestablishment of school boards as of the mischief that would be done to education. If the clause succeeded, it would be said by a certain section of the working classes-"We thought you were wrong at the time you passed the Act establishing school boards, and now you see Parliament is of the same opinion too." He was of opinion, further, that there had been something like indecent hurry in this matter. The Government should have waited till they had gained some experience as to how school boards under Town Councils and Boards of

Guardians answered before bringing this proposition before the House. He hoped the noble Lord would re-consider this matter.

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ity. This Bill was brought in, no doubt, with the very best intentions on the part of the noble Lord, but he may still be misled as to what are really the feelings of the majority. I beg him very carefully to consider what the word

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majority" here means. Does he believe that is the opinion of a majority which is contrary to the wishes and feelings of the majority of the people of England? I think he ought to be very careful until it is decided what a majority" is. Does the hon. Member for South Leicestershire suppose that his proposal is one that will meet the wishes of those who are anxious for the education of the people? Does he not know that the establishment of school boards throughout the country has been brought about through much opposition, and that the effect of the Motion will be to set up a standing agitation and opposition, and that thereby it will weaken the efforts of those who are anxious for the education of the people? I was very much struck with the observations of an hon. Gentleman behind me, who said there was a large body of the working men who are opposed to the education of their children. These are the very

MR. WHALLEY also opposed the clause. The desire to educate the children of the humbler classes up to a certain Standard, without the means of the people to pay for it, was productive of feuds in families and of disobedience in children to their parents. With regard to school boards he cared nothing for them, and he did not care how soon they were done away with. In his opinion, the State should not have anything to do with the education of the children of the country. That was a thing that should be left to the parents of the children. He regretted that the hon. Member for South Leicestershire (Mr. Pell) had thrown that torpedo" into the arena. He regretted he was contending, not with an honest and open foe, but against enemies who were a disgrace to the country-men who were expending millions of the public money in spreading the doctrines of Popery, and in favouring the conversion of men who were passing over the bridge from Protestantism to Popery-a doctrine which was hostile to the Crown. He regarded the men who were favour-people we want to conquer—we want to ing such a policy, not merely as secret enemies of the Church, but as the reverend "sepoys" (the parsons) who were sapping her foundations. He was decidedly opposed to any clause that could favour such a system, and it was the duty of every hon. Member to do his utmost to prevent a Bill passing into law that would hand over the children of this country to the clerical party.

MR. ROEBUCK: I will make no frantic appeal to the emotion of hon. Members, but attempt a calmness which ought to be brought into discussions on this subject. The noble Lord who has charge of this Bill has said that by the adoption of the clause, he is merely proposing to put into the hands of a majority a power which they ought to have, and which they will exercise in the best interests of the country. But I beg him to consider that the word "majority" is an ambiguous one. A majority of a parish is not a majority of a county-a majority of a county is not a majority of the country. This Bill is a sort of supplement to that of 1870, which was passed after much difficulty and against much opposition by a very strong minor

Mr. D. Davies

overcome their ignorances and prejudices, and to persuade them to believe that the high efforts which we are making are not only for the benefit of themselves, but for the benefit of the country to which they belong. After grave consideration I rise for the purpose of expressing to the noble Lord my strong opinion that the effects of the clause will be most mischievous to the cause of education, and to the measure of 1870, which has already been so greatly beneficial. Last year I saw at Sheffield a spectacle rarely witnessed. When His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales visited that hotbed of democracy I saw among the working men a spirit that I am sure was greatly influenced by the education of the children; for it must not be thought that the education of the children does not affect the parents. Education not only goes downwards but upwards; and I believe that no greater measure was ever passed for the benefit of the people of England than that great measure of 1870. I believe, too, that the name of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bradford will pass down to posterity as that of one who has conferred a large

meed of benefit upon his country than any man who has preceded him. I most earnestly entreat the noble Lord and the right hon. Gentleman on his right (Mr. Disraeli) to re-consider their deliberation in the matter, and to believe me when I say that by what they now propose they will be doing the greatest possible evil to the great principle of education in this country.

MR. HOPWOOD said, he had heard in the discussion compliments paid to the school board of the place that he had the honour to represent. It was a mixed board, and was essentially a denominational board; and he must say, although it was not in all respects what he should like to see it, that that board had already effected great service to the cause of education in the borough of Stockport. There were Roman Catholics and men of various religious denominations on the board. Would the noble Lord propose to dissolve that board-a board which was accomplishing the greatest good, and which was productive of the best feeling among the people of that important borough? It must be remembered that the board was elected by cumulative voting which had given the Denominationalists such great strength; but by the proposal before the House, the board might be dissolved at the request of a mere majority in number who were impatient of rates. The proposal to destroy the Bill of 1870 did not come from the people, but from a sectarian class who wished to put down the best measure that was ever passed for the welfare and elevation of the people. He was convinced that if an appeal were made to the country there would be an overwhelming expression of feeling against the proposal to put an end to the best part of the Education Act of 1870. If the Government thought so highly of the principle of appealing to a majority of the ratepayers, why did they not apply it to questions affecting sanitary administration or confidence in the county magistrates?

MR. RAMSAY said, he certainly should not have voted for the second reading of the Bill if he had for a moment supposed any proposal would be adopted as a part of the measure that would in any way imperil the existence of school boards in places where they were at present established. He could not but speak in high terms of the working of

the Scotch Education Act, a measure which was productive of most valuable results in Scotland, and which, considering the education given in many of the board schools was worked at a reasonably cheap rate per child. Many who were qualified to teach them did so as "a labour of love." In many isolated districts there were children in those schools who, at 13 years of age, were reading Greek, and were otherwise remarkably forward in various branches of useful education. The expense of the election of school boards was complained of, but that rested very much with the inhabitants of the districts. In the parish in which he resided, and which had a population of above 2,000, the cost of a school board contest was only 16s. School boards covered every district in Scotland, and he should like to ask the noble Lord whether he intended to apply the principle of the clause moved by the hon. Member for South Leicestershire to Scotland?

MR. MUNDELLA said, it was clear that the discussion on the clause could not be brought to a close then, in consequence of the profound feeling which had been aroused on that side of the House. The acceptance of the clause by the Government had created a feeling which he was sure could not be allayed till the clause was withdrawn. As there only remained 10 minutes before the debate must be brought to a close, and as a dozen Members near him wished to speak, he would beg to move that the Chairman should report Progress.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—(Mr. Mundella.)

THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON said, he wished to say a few words before the Motion was agreed to. He was very glad indeed that the right hon. Gentleman at the head of the Government had been in his place during the latter portion of the discussion that afternoon. He most sincerely wished it had been in the power of the right hon. Gentleman to have been in his place last night when the discussion commenced, for he believed that the deep impression which was at once created on that side of the House by the announcement that the Government intended to support the clause of the hon. Member for South

Question put.

Leicestershire would have led the right | Government becoming law must be inhon. Gentleman to the conclusion- volved in the decision of the Government whatever his own private opinion or the on this point. He trusted that before private opinion of his Friends might be the discussion was resumed, the right that it was not worth while to encum- hon. Gentleman would carefully conber the passage of the Bill by accepting sider whether it were necessary to force this clause. He doubted whether, among on the divided opinion of the House a his numerous avocations, the right hon. proposition which the Government did Gentleman had had time to make him- not think it necessary to introduce, and self master of the clause. A day had which, if the right hon. Gentleman had been unfortunately and unnecessarily been present last night, he would have wasted in this discussion. It had, how-heard supported by the Vice President ever, been wasted, not by the discussion of the Council in a hesitating manner of the clause, but in consequence of the and really as a matter of small and adoption of the clause by the Govern- trifling importance. ment. If the clause had not been adopted by the Government he believed the Committee on the Bill might have been concluded that day. But although the day had been wasted, he did not think it was too late, even now, to appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to consider whether it were absolutely necessary to force the clause against what he must feel was the unanimous opinion of that side of the House. The right hon. Gentleman could not believe that the clause was essential to the Bill which the Government had introduced, for if it had been essential it would have been proposed by the Government. Government had had an opportunity of considering the question for a long time, and they had deliberately introduced a well-prepared and well-considered measure which did not contain

The

this proposition. Again, as the hon. Member who proposed the clause had informed the Committee that day, the proposal had been on the Paper for a considerable time, and consequently the Government had had ample opportunity of considering it. It was not included, however, in those important Amendments in regard to which the noble Lord the Vice President of the Council

The Committee divided:-Ayes 120; Noes 175: Majority 55.

House resumed.

Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Monday next.

And it being now Seven of the clock, the House suspended its Sitting.

The House resumed its sitting at Nine of the clock.

SUPPLY-COMMITTEE.
Order for Committee read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Deputy Speaker do now leave the Chair.'

Notice taken, that 40 Members were not present; House counted, and 40 Members being found present,

THE TURKISH DEBT-THE LOAN OF

1854.-RESOLUTION.

MR. RUSSELL GURNEY, in rising made a statement the other day. For to call the attention of the House to those two reasons, he thought he was the circumstances under which the justified in coming to the conclusion Turkish Loan of 1854 was subscribed that the Government could not deem it for; and to moveto be a matter of such vital importance as to consider it necessary at all hazards to insist upon introducing it. After the statement made by the right hon. Gentleman last night it was impossible that he could regard the expenditure of two or three days at this period of the Session as a matter of no concern. The convenience of the House and the pect of many of the measures of the said, that the circumstances involved in The Marquess of Hartington

pros

"That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that Her Majesty will direct that a communication may be made to the President of the French Republic in order will unite with the Government of Her Majesty in pressing upon the Government of Turkey the complete fulfilment of the conditions upon which the Turkish Loan of 1854 was subscribed for,"

to ascertain whether the French Government

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