the Committee generally. It was designed to guard against an evil which every Member of the House would wish to see prevented, and in a way that was not open to objection. He did not believe that the Conscience Clause of 1870 had been often infringed. Indeed, he was not himself aware of any such case. But there was great fear of its being infringed, and it was a suspicion which must be treated by the Government and the House as a fact. Some security, therefore, should be provided against such infringement. He could not vote last evening for the Amendment of the hon. Member (Mr. Richard), believing that it would not work well if the schools were put under the management of the local authority. But as the power now to be given to the local authority would benefit the schools by obtaining for them a larger grant and larger fees from the children, it was only fair that the local authority should report to the Education Department if the conditions were infringed upon which their compulsory powers were exercised. The Amendment also provided that the local authority should forward to the Education Department any complaint made to them of the infraction of the Conscience Clause. VISCOUNT SANDON observed, that the Government and all hon. Members on that (the Ministerial) side were as anxious as any hon. Members on the other side could be that there should be no doubt as to the Conscience Clause being strictly and honestly carried out. In point of fact, the cases were very few in the country generally in which there were any complaints of the infraction of the clause; but whenever a complaint was received by the Education Department they immediately caused inquiries to be made into it. They had had two or three cases, and the school had been notified that if the infraction were repeated the annual Parliamentary grant would be stopped, and there was an end of the matter. He thought that the Amendment was a very good one, not for removing any real difficulties which existed; but if it was an additional assurance to persons that their conscientious scruples would not be interfered with, it would have done good work. LORD ROBERT MONTAGU contended that as no grant was made to certified efficient schools they ought not Mr. W. E. Forster to have a Conscience Clause imposed upon them. MR. PAGET said, he agreed with the noble Lord (Viscount Sandon) that all wished to see the Conscience Clause carried out in the most complete and loyal manner. He feared that the Amendment, if accepted in its present shape, would oblige the local authorities to report any idle tale or rumour as to the infraction of the clause, and if so it would do great mischief and cause strife where we wanted peace.. He would therefore move to amend the proposed Amendment by omitting all the words after the word "authority" in line 2 down to "also" in line 5. MR. W. E. FORSTER pointed out that it was not a mere rumour, but an infraction of the provision of the section referred to that should be reported. MR. A. MILLS said, he could not conceive words more clear than the terms in which the Amendment was drawn. It was satisfactory to the Committee to have the testimony of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bradford that he had known of no infraction of the Conscience Clause. MR. RICHARD said, he was greatly obliged to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bradford for proposing the Amendment, and he was no less obliged to the noble Lord (Viscount Sandon) for the frank and generous spirit with which he had received it. It would be a great advantage to give this power to the local authorities. Amendment (Mr. Paget), by leave, withdrawn. Amendment (Mr. W. E. Forster) agreed to. THE O'CONOR DON moved, in page 2, line 16, to leave out "and not of,” and insert "to assist." If the clause were left unaltered it would throw upon the Inspectors of Factories, and upon them alone, the duty of looking after the children employed in all the smaller workshops, and the consequence would be that in a great portion of the country the Act would be inoperative. The effect of his Amendment was to throw upon the local authorities the duty of enforcing the observance of the law, providing at the same time that the Inspectors of Factories should assist the local authorities in the carrying out of that duty. Bill. MR. A. M'ARTHUR said, it was utterly impossible that the Inspectors could do what this clause imposed upon them. MR. W. S. STANHOPE said, some | Manchester and Liverpool, again, had Amendment was absolutely necessary in only one Coroner a piece, while the the mining districts, where the Inspectors borough of Malmesbury thought itself had so many important duties and large entitled to two, though he did not districts to attend to; thus it would be suppose cases of sudden death were impossible for them to attend to the more prevalent there than elsewhere. schools in the manner required by the But it was in the qualifications of Coroners that the necessity for reform was most evident. In counties, for instance, one of their qualifications was believed to be the possession of a certain amount of landed estate, but no two authorities could agree as to how much it should be. In fixing that qualification our ancestors were supposed to have aimed at securing for the office the services of men who as being possessed of lands in fee would not be afraid of anybody; but it was unnecessary to say that the possession of land was a ridiculous qualification for a Coroner at the present day. The qualification of sit borough Coroners was even less satisfactory than that of their county brethren. All that was necessary in their case was VISCOUNT SANDON admitted that it would be imperilling too much the interests of education if they relied solely upon the Inspectors, and he would therefore accept the Amendment of the hon. Member for Roscommon. Amendment agreed to. Clause, as amended, agreed to. Committee report Progress; to again upon Thursday. The House suspended its sitting at that they should answer to the somewhat Seven of the clock. vague description of being fit persons, and that they should be neither alder The House resumed its sitting at Nine men nor councillors. To any reasonable of the clock. "That further legislation is desirable with regard to the qualification and appointment of Coroners and the mode of holding inquests," said, the conditions on which Coroners were appointed and the mode in which they exercised their duties had become so antiquated and obsolete as to call imperatively for reform. The number of Coroners in counties in England and Wales was 233. The number in boroughs was 99. The first thing that struck one in examining the Return from which he obtained these figures was the anomalous manner in which Coroners were distributed. The county of Middlesex, for instance, was satisfied with five. The county of Huntingdon was not satisfied with less, whilst the county of Dorset was not satisfied with less than 11. Norfolk had seven, and Suffolk five, in addition to Coroners at Bury St. Edmund's, Ipswich, Yarmouth, Norwich, Thetford, Sudbury, and King's Lynn. mind it was perfectly ridiculous that functions of so important and delicate a character as those of Coroners should be left to auctioneers, retired tradesmen, and other persons of a similar kind. He did not believe, for his part, that they could be properly discharged by any man who had not a good legal training. He would say, indeed, that no one but a barrister or a solicitor ought to be made a Coroner, though he was well aware that The Lancet and other medical organs, which regarded such appointments as a nice perquisite for their profession, would raise an outcry at the bare idea of such a thing. In counties Coroners, generally speaking, were elected by the freeholders, and however reasonable that mode of election might have been in ancient times, it was far from being reasonable now-a-days. In these days there could hardly be a worse way of appointing a judicial officer like a Coroner than by exposing him to the chances and changes of a popular election. Of our 232 county Coroners, 175 were elected by the freeholders, and 58 by lords of manors and various officials and dignitaries of that description. In Derbyshire a Coroner was appointed by right of the possession of a horn-a hereditary relic. In Essex a Coroner | tically obsolete, only remarking that not was appointed by the tenants of a many years ago the Coroners, in retaliamanor; in the county of Northampton tion for the injury done them by Justices, by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners; in attempted to claim a jurisdiction in cases Suffolk by the Dean and Chapter of Ely. of arson. The Court of Queen's Bench The case of the boroughs was, perhaps, seemed to have been sorely perplexed better than that of the counties. The at the array of antiquarian arguments borough Coroners were elected for the marshalled before them, but at last most part by the Town Councils. In the decided very sensibly that Coroners small boroughs there was likely to be a were not to inquire into incendiary fires, good deal of jobbery, and perhaps in or into anything but the death of human some of the large ones also. In the beings. The function of Coroners, then, boroughs of Rye, Tenterden, and Haver- was to make inquiry into all cases of fordwest the Mayor was ex-officio the Coro- violent, unnatural, or sudden, and susner. He should not like to live, or rather picious death, but still their duties were to die suddenly, in any of those boroughs, not clearly laid down or clearly underbecause the inquest then held would stood. He had been told of a case of most probably be of the most imperfect cha- sudden and suspicious death, which racter. The question of the appoint- occurred within the last few months, ment of Coroners, therefore, required a where the Coroner absolutely refused solution of a radical kind, and yet the to hold an inquest, and where, though needed reforms could be based on several application was made to high authorities, ancient precedents. They had centuries nothing was done, and it was supago ceased to appoint magistrates or posed that nothing could be done to sheriffs by popular election; and his make him hold one. He believed that proposition now was that Coroners should as the law now stood, if a Coroner in counties cease to be chosen by the refused to hold an inquest where one freeholders or appointed by lords of ought to be held, an application could manors or other authorities such as had be made to the Court of Queen's Bench been mentioned before. To storm the by the Attorney General. But that was municipal corporations was a more diffi- a roundabout way of getting him to do cult matter, and he felt some alarm in his duty, because if he did not hold the suggesting that they should be deprived inquest at once he might as well not of their patronage. He now came to hold it at all. The inquest must be the remuneration of these officers, about held super visum corporis; and if there which there had been much difficulty was much delay this might become imand squabbling between Coroners and practicable. It was, therefore, a matJustices. Formerly county Coroners were ter of importance that if the Coroner paid by fees, when the county Justices neglected his duty, there should be some used to do all they could to prevent their machinery for promptly compelling him payment. The result was that if the to do it. On the other hand, within Coroner did not hold an inquest he the last year or two they had several was liable for nonfeasance; and if he times heard of a Coroner exceeding did he was almost sure to lose his his duty, and obtruding himself withfees. A Royal Commission and a Se-out cause upon the private grief of lect Committee, however, some years a family to their great annoyance and ago inquired into that matter, and an Act was passed which put the remuneration of county Coroners on a proper footing by giving them fixed salaries. Borough Coroners, however, were still paid by fees, and in an inconvenient and even absurd manner, as was shown by a Return relating to that matter which was issued in 1872. But the real pith and substance of the question he had to introduce related to the duties of Coroners. He passed by inquiries into wrecks, treasure trove, and other minor duties of Coroners which were now prac Lord Francis Hervey discomfort. The Home Secretary was obliged to deal with a case of that kind not long ago when an eminent man died. Coroners certainly had not been very successful from the dawn of their history. The first mention of them that he found was that King Alfred hanged a Judge for treating a Coroner's inquest as conclusive. We were not so foolish in these days as to treat an inquest as conclusive. He need not remind the House of the scene in Hamlet which had immortalized "Crowner's quest law." Lord Holt had made some very severe remarks on a "weak, silly" Coroner of his day. At no time did Coroners seem to have been treated with respect. Blackstone spoke strongly of the incompetency of Coroners, and, coming down to the present time, Sir John Jervis, in his book on Coroners, spoke of them as being in some instances incompetent to discharge even their present limited authority. So that, looking at the history of Coroners' jurisdiction on the whole, it might be said of those officials that, like the unfortunate maidservant in Barnaby Rudge, they had "failed to give satisfaction." But was there nothing to be said in excuse for Coroners? The statute law relating to Coroners and Coroner's inquests was contained in something over 30 different Acts of Parliament. But if the Statute Law on the subject was confused and intricate, it was almost impossible in any case to say what was the Common Law on those matters. When a Bill on that question was brought in, as it must be before long, he hoped that some effort would be made to remove the obscurities and clear up the doubts and difficulties which beset Coroners on all sides in the discharge of their duties. At any rate, the Statute Law on the subject should be reduced to a single Act, and if the Home Secretary could at the same time clear up the doubtful points, or at any rate some of them, in the Common Law, he would do very serviceable work. For instance, what was to be done if a Coroner did not properly discharge his duty? The Attorney General had found it a very difficult matter to get a fresh inquiry in a case where the performance of the Coroner was admitted to be perfunctory and imperfect. The Attorney General knew how difficult it was for him to say what was the proper remedy in such a case, what was the proper mode of proceeding, and how many different modes of proceeding there were. There were a few other suggestions which he would make with regard to the manner in which inquests were held. Could anything be more prejudicial to the proper holding of a Coroner's inquiry than the holding of it, as was so often the case, in a public-house? Surely there was something perfectly disgusting in holding an inquiry so solemn and sometimes so delicate in a public-house with jingling glasses and the shouts of drunken persons all around. As to the publicity of - the proceeding, to his mind it was of cardinal importance that a judicial inquiry of this kind should be taken in the full light of day, and that it should not be open to the Coroner, from mere caprice or a desire to make a show of his authority, to clear his court-a Court of Record of all the public, and conduct the proceedings as he pleased in the dark. That was surely a very important point. Was it advisable that we should invariably have recourse to a jury in inquiries of this kind? Did a jury really assist the Coroner? In many cases was not the Coroner impeded in the inquiry by a jury? The Coroner was supposed to take down the evidence of the witnesses in writing, and to procure the signature of the witnesses to it. On this point the law was obscure. But the Coroner sometimes took down the evidence wrong, and did not read it over to the witness. Was it to be tolerated that statements should be put into the mouths of witnesses which they never made? The object which our forefathers in their wisdom wished to attain by establishing Coroners throughout the country was that in cases of sudden or violent or suspicious death there should be a searching and immediate inquiry. They wished, as far as they could, that that inquiry should be held before officials of whose abilities there was no question, whose character was beyond reproach. We could not altogether say that that was the case now. surely not less necessary in these days than of old that a Coroner's inquiry should be searching and immediate and before competent persons. He thought he had made out a case for a considerable and a speedy alteration of the law on this subject. The noble Lord concluded by moving the Resolution of which he had given Notice. It was MR. SERJEANT SIMON, in seconding the Motion, said, the House was indebted to the noble Lord for having brought under its attention this subject, which was only one of many illustrations of the extent to which the English nation was apt to tolerate an evil until some striking instance of wrong occurred. A recent case had brought the question of Coroners' inquests under public consideration. The office of Coroner was one of the oldest judicial offices on record. In olden times Coroners were not allowed to take fees. Their office was a most dignified one, and Chaucer, in his description of the Franklein mentions it thus "At sessions ther was he lord and sire, conducted openly or in private he referred to a decision of Lord Tenterden, in which that learned Judge laid it down that as an inquest was a preliminary inFul often time he was knight of the shire, quiry in which the reputations of perA shereve hadde he ben, and a coronour, sons might unnecessarily be placed in Was no wher swiche a worthy vavasour." jeopardy, it should be left to the disIn fact, by the Statute of Westminster I. cretion of the Coroner whether or not none but "lawful and discreet knights" it should be held openly or in private. were to be chosen as Coroners, and in Occasions might arise on which unnethe reign of Edward III. a Coroner was cessary pain might be occasioned to surremoved from office because he was viving relatives and friends by the holdonly a merchant. He (Mr. Serjeant ing of public inquests, and therefore Simon) greatly doubted the utility of the power should be given to Coroners to office of Coroner at the present time. hold inquests in private; but, as a power If we had stipendiary magistrates all of this kind might be abused, it was over the country he would say, transfer important that every person chosen the duties of Coroner to them. But as to fill the office of Coroner should not that was not practicable we had to con- only possess the necessary professional sider how we could best give effect to ability, but should be a man of the the object for which the office of Coroner highest character. He ought to be above was intended. Coroners had formerly suspicion of corruption, and should be to inquire into wrecks and to perform a man of honour and a gentleman. the duties of the Sheriff during his ab- With reference to the mode of the apsence, and they thus combined judi- pointment, nothing could be less concial with administrative functions. The ducive to the credit of the office than office, however, at the present time was the mode of election. He had great purely judicial, involving great respon- regard for popular election when applied sibility and requiring judgment and tact, to its proper objects; but certainly oband great experience in the ways of life.jected to popular election when applied The Coroner should possess legal know- to a judicial office. The contest for the ledge to enable him to conduct his in-office often turned upon the question of quiries efficiently and delicacy of feeling who could spend most money. Altogeand a wise discretion to know when it ther it seemed to him that it was well was necessary and when it was unne-worthy the consideration of the Home cessary to intrude into the privacy of a sorrowing family. He could name one signal instance where a lady having died by her own hand the Coroner had directed a post mortem examination for the purpose of ascertaining not the cause of death, but her condition which had led her to take her own life; and there were cases where Coroners through want of tact and delicacy had unnecessarily dragged matters to light which could serve no public good, and would have been better left in darkness. He Motion made, and Question proposed, had many communications corroborating "That further legislation is desirable with his assertion that many Coroners dis- regard to the qualification and appointment of charged the duties of their office ineffi-Coroners and the mode of holding inquests." (Lord Francis Hervey.) ciently, and often so as to render the inquiry a mere waste of public time and expense, and as a means for the promulgation of idle gossip. In his opinion, the office should be filled by a trained lawyer accustomed to judicial proceedings, and qualified to deal with evidence, and not by a medical man. On the question whether these inquiries should be Mr. Serjeant Simon Secretary, whether the time had not come for bringing in some measure which would remedy the evils complained of. For his own part, he agreed with the noble Lord as to the need there was for a consolidation of the laws relating to Coroners, an alteration of the mode of appointment, and the providing of some guarantee that Coroners should be men of character and possessing proper qualifications for the office. MR. CLARE READ, in supporting the Motion, said, he was prepared to go further than his noble Friend who had brought the question forward, and to say that the time had arrived when the office of Coroner might be abolished altogether with very satisfactory results. The office was a very ancient one, but |