opposing the Bill at a later stage if he thought fit. LORD FRANCIS HERVEY wished, as a matter of personal explanation, to say that he made no insinuation whatever against his noble Friend. He was aware that his noble Friend was not in the House at the time, and that was the reason he asked the Question. He himself was not in the House, because he went out to the Lobby to ask his noble Friend what his intention with regard to the Bill was, and his reply was, that it was much too late to take the Bill that night, and that he was going to leave the House. Satisfied with that assurance, he re-entered the House and discovered that the Bill had been read a second time. The question had important bearings in its Parliamentary aspect. The way in which important and Opposed Business was taken at times when amid the confusion of hon. Members leaving the House no one could tell what was going on, was not creditable to the House, and had a very injurious effect on Public Business. In order to put himself in Order, he begged to move the Adjournment of the House. MR. DILLWYN seconded the Motion, and appealed to the right hon. Gentleman in the Chair to say what might be the best mode of remedying the inconvenience complained of. Perhaps it might be done by means of a Standing Order. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."(Lord Francis Hervey.) MR. W. H. SMITH said, that as he was the Member of the Government responsible for the accident, he wished to explain how it had occurred. He was in charge of the Orders of the Day when the Ministers who had charge of Bills were not in their places. On Friday he noticed that his noble Friend (Lord Francis Hervey) was in his place just at the moment before the Order was reached. His noble Friend had two Notices on the Paper-one that the Bill should be read a second time that day three months; the other that it should be referred to a Select Committee. Having moved, as was his duty, that the Bill should be read a second time, he expected his noble Friend to rise and move either that it should be read a second time that day three months, or, Viscount Sandon having been read a second time, that it should be referred to a Select Committee. He was surprised, however, to find that his noble Friend was not present; and that he might not be placed at a disadvantage, he asked the Clerk to put down a Notice in his noble Friend's name, for the next stage that the Bill be committed that day three months. If he had had an idea that either his noble Friend or the Vice President of the Council desired that the Bill should be postponed, he would readily have postponed it. He thought it was the opinion of the House that a Bill, which the Standing Orders require to be referred to a Select Committee, ought not to be delayed in the absence either of the hon. Member in charge of the Bill, or of the hon. Member opposed to it. SIR WILLIAM FRASER suggested that it might be for the convenience of the House that a minute should be allowed to elapse between announcing the numbers of a division and the calling on of a fresh Order. Motion, by leave, withdrawn. TURKEY-ALLEGED ATROCITIES IN BULGARIA.-QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS. MR. W. E. FORSTER: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury a Question of which I have given him Private Notice, referring to the accounts of the Turkish atrocities in Bulgaria. Many hon. Members will have read with pain -I may say with horror-the accounts to which I refer, and the Question that I have to put to the right hon. Gentleman is, Whether any reply has been received to the inquiry addressed by the noble Earl the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, which on Monday week he said he would make, as to the outrages which had been perpetrated by the Turkish troops? I wish to ask, whether there has been any reply confirming the statements contained in The Daily News of last Saturday, and also in a letter from Therapia, a suburb of Constantinople, in The Times on the same day, to the effect that a large number of Bulgarian girls had been sold publicly as slaves; and also that a very large number of Bulgarians are now undergoing tortures in prisons; and, whether the right hon. Gentleman is willing to lay on the Table any Papers and De spatches that Her Majesty's Government | rection, which no one can look back may have received relating to this subject? upon without horror. I cannot doubt that atrocities have been committed in Bulgaria; but that girls were sold into slavery, or that more than 10,000 persons have been imprisoned, I doubt. In fact, I doubt whether there is prison accom has been practised on a great scale among an Oriental people who seldom, I believe, resort to torture, but generally terminate their connection with culprits in a more expeditious manner. These are circumstances which lead me to hope that in time we may be better informed. I have no doubt there may be much to deplore in what has been done, and we may even become convinced that scenes have occurred which must bring to everyone feelings of the deepest regret. Still, I cannot but cherish a hope that some of the statements the heart-rending statements-we have heard have not that foundation which some hon. Gentlemen believe they possess. I can only repeat that every effort will be made by Her Majesty's Government, and, as hon. Gentlemen will see when the Papers are before them, has already been made, to impress on the Government of Constantinople that the utmost efforts should be made to mitigate as much as possible the terrible scenes that are now inevitably occurring. When the information arrives I shall not lose a moment in apprising the right hon. Gentleman and the House of what the result may be; but at present I can only repeat that no answer has been received to the inquiry of my noble Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, and that it is impossible that an answer should have been received. MR. DISRAELI: Mr. Speaker, no reply has been received to the inquiry made by my noble Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs on the subject referred to by the right hon. Gen-modation for so many, or that torture tleman. But it would be impossible that a reply could be received by this time. With regard to the Papers connected with these atrocities in Bulgaria, some communications have been made between the Government and our Ambassador at Constantinople and the Consuls at the seats of disturbance, and all the information we have received upon this subject will be found in the Papers to be laid on the Table in a few days. With respect to the reports of the terrible atrocities to which the right hon. Gentleman has referred, I would still express a hope that when we become better informed-I would express this hope for the sake of human nature itself -when we are thoroughly informed of what has occurred it will be found that the statements are scarcely warranted. The House must recollect that we are in constant communication with our Ambassador at Constantinople. Every day we hear from him. Sir Henry Elliot is not a man to be insensible to such terrible proceedings. On the contrary, he is a stern assertor of humanity, and I know no man who would more firmly and energetically interfere if he were aware of events such as those to which the right hon. Gentleman has referred. We are also represented in the seats of disturbance by gentlemen, as Her Majesty's Consuls, eminent for their abilities and high character-at Belgrade, at Ragusa, at Cettinje, and at other places; we are in constant communication with those gentlemen, and certainly no information of the kind has as yet reached Her Majesty's Government. That there have been proceedings of an atrocious character in Bulgaria I never for a moment doubted. Wars of insurrection are always atrocious. These are wars not carried on by Regular troops-in this case not even by Irregular troops but by a sort of posse comitatus of an armed population. We know in our own experience that one of our Colonies, an ancient Colony of England-Jamaica -was the scene of transactions and of a panic which always accompanies insur MR. W. E. FORSTER: I trust that the House will allow me to make one remark. The long letter that appeared in The Daily News was in answer to an inquiry sent from London after the Question which I asked in the House. Doubtless that inquiry was made by telegram, and therefore I would venture to suggest to Her Majesty's Government that there should be telegraphic communication with Sir Henry Elliot without delay. I trust I may be pardoned for making that suggestion, and I also trust that the right hon. Gentleman may be right in supposing that there is exaggeration, yet there may have occurred what "That this House do now adjourn.”. Motion made, and Question proposed, (Mr. William Edward Forster.) is intensely horrible, and would excite | perpetrated these atrocities, unless it be indignation in us all. I cannot forget proved to the contrary. this-["Order, order!"] If I am out of Order, I will conclude with a Motion; but I think it will be most important that we should obtain this information for this reason-that it appears that we could not have a discussion upon the state of the Eastern Question until the middle of next week. Generally speaking, the delay would matter little; but events are marching quickly in the East, and we see in the papers time after time these terrible statements, which to my mind carry a great deal of truth with them. [Cries of "Order" and "Chair!"] MR. SPEAKER said, the House would allow the right hon. Gentleman every reasonable latitude in explanation, but he was now entering into reasons and arguments, and he was clearly out of Order, unless he was prepared to conIclude with a Motion. MR. W. E. FORSTER: Then, Sir, I will put myself in Order by moving the adjournment of the House. I was saying that side by side with these statements we have these facts. In the first place, we cannot have a discussion on the subject for several days. I do not blame the Government for postponing the discussion. I do not doubt that they are doing their utmost to bring out the Papers as soon as possible. I have no doubt that they wish for this discussion as much as we do; but events are marching very quickly in that country, and side by side with these terrible storieswhich appear to me to have a great foundation of truth, because they are not merely mentioned in these newspapers, but in others; not only in the Christian newspapers, but in the Turkish papers also we have constantly statements from Turkey itself, confirmed by information throughout the Continent, that the moral support of Her Majesty's Government is given to a Power which is perpetrating these atrocities. I am not blaming the Government. No doubt they are doing what they can to avoid that impression; but surely it is time now that we should know what is their policy in the future. Our own position is humiliating to the sense of honour of the country, and it is revolting to the consciences of Englishmen that we should be supposed to give our moral support to a Power which has Mr. W. E. Forster MR. EVELYN ASHLEY: I would beg to ask the right hon. Gentleman at the head of the Government a Question. He told us that he had received no information, though communications had arrived from the Consuls at Belgrade, Ragusa, and Cettinje; but these are not the districts where these alleged atrocities took place. I should like to know whether he has had any information from Philippopolis and Adrianople, where there are Consuls to whom he has made no allusion ? MR. ANDERSON: I think it would have been more assuring to the country if the Premier, instead of throwing doubt on these statements which have appeared, had rather treated them as if they contained a great deal of truth. We have heard of atrocities committed on non-combatants at which our blood curdles atrocities upon women and children; and I do not think it is possible for anyone who has read the journals in which these statements appeared to doubt that there is a great deal of truth in them. At such a time as this I think it is the duty of every European Government to unite in representations to the combatants, and especially to the Turkish Government, to endeavour to get them to conduct the war on more civilized principles. Of course we know that war cannot be fought out with velvet gloves, and a good deal of atrocity must be committed. But I think there is a great deal in the present case perpetrated upon non-combatants, and women and children, that might be avoided if strong representations were made by other Governments. MR. MUNDELLA: I am sure that the House will rejoice if the hopes expressed by the Premier can only be realized, when the House is in possession of full information on the subject, but I am afraid there is no chance of their being realized. From all we can gather by a comparison of the newspapers with private information, I am afraid we have not yet heard the whole of this matter. I have myself heard from private sources that the facts are so horrible that they cannot be recited by an English newspaper; and if that be so, I duty to tell the House that we had reeven in the supposition that a tithe of ceived no such information. That atrowhat has been stated should be accurate, cities have been perpetrated in Bulwould it not be well for the Government garia it will be clear to the House when to telegraph to Her Majesty's Minister it has the Papers in its hands; but none at Constantinople to remonstrate upon of the particulars upon which the Gothese atrocities, and if possible to arrest vernment have lately been challenged their further continuance? It seems to have reached us, although in constant me that we are left entirely in doubt as to communication with Her Majesty's Amwhat has been done by the Government. bassador, and also not only with the We do not know whether they have re- Consuls that I have named, but also monstrated or not. We have a mag- those at the places in the Turkish donificent fleet in Besika Bay, and we minions to which the hon. Member for have a Minister at Constantinople, and Poole (Mr. Evelyn Ashley) has reare told by The Times and The Daily News ferred; but in none of these communiall about these facts, and yet we have no cations have any of these details been information from the Government as to mentioned. That is the answer I wish these matters, which are a disgrace to to make to the House, and I do not wish humanity, and which will form one of the answer to be misunderstood. I do the bloodiest pages of history. not deny that atrocities have been committed, and I believe they must be inevitable in insurrectionary wars in such countries; but I have to answer directly the inquiry of the House, represented by the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Forster), whether we had not received information of the particular details and horrors mentioned in the various journals to which the right hon. Gentleman referred. My answer is now, as before, that we have received no such information. SIR EDWARD WATKIN: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, looking to the great doubt that is thrown upon the reports that have been made, and the universal sympathy that must be felt for the sufferers, he is prepared to instruct Her Majesty's Minister at Constantinople to send some emissary or other to inquire into the truth of this report? MR. DISRAELI: I have stated, Sir, that all the information we have received will be found in the Papers which will soon be on the Table, and I believe that information is ample. It will then be found that it was not when the subject was first mooted in the House that the attention of Her Majesty's Government was first given to the subject, but that our Ambassador at Constantinople and our Representatives in the disturbed districts had all been instructed to use their utmost influence to prevent the committal of any of these atrocities. I must again repeat, in order to prevent misconception, that I never for a moment wished to deny that there had been atrocities in Bulgaria or the other places mentioned; but when I was asked with regard to the atrocities particularized in some public journals, when my attention was called to them, and when I was asked whether the Government was aware of those atrocities-whether 1,000 Bulgarian girls had been sold as slaves and 10,000 of the population subjected to torture or thrown into prison, with other details of the same kind-when called on to say whether we had received information of such particulars, I felt it my VOL. CCXXX. [THIRD SERIES.] Motion, by leave, withdrawn. ELEMENTARY EDUCATION BILL. [BILL 155.] (Viscount Sandon, Mr. Chancellor of the Ex chequer, Mr. Secretary Cross.) COMMITTEE. Order for Committee read. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."-(Viscount Sandon.) MR. RICHARD,* in rising to move "That, in the opinion of this House, the principle of universal compulsion in education cannot be applied without great injustice unless provision be made for placing public elementary schools under public management," said: It is with perfect sincerity that I say it gives me no pleasure to appear here as an objector to the Bill. I came down to the House on the day when the noble Lord was to introduce and expound his measure with as earnest a wish as man ever cherished that it might be of such a nature as to absolve me, at 2 Q least, from the necessity of offering to | And now let us see what you do by this it any serious opposition. The cause of Bill for denominational schools. First popular education is one very near to of all, you subsidize them largely with my heart, and I have been an humble pecuniary aid; and you do this in three but earnest labourer in the cause for 35 ways. First, by Clause 12, which says, years. Thirty years ago I took an active if any parent is unable to pay a fee of part in the establishment of a school for 3d. a-week for his child it may be paid boys, girls, and infants in one of the for him by the guardians of the poor. populous districts of the metropolis, Next, by Clause 13, you provide that in through which schools I believe up to poor districts a grant may be given to the present time some 15,000 or 16,000 the school to the amount of twice the children have passed. In the year 1845 income of the school from every source. I had the pleasure of starting a move- And, thirdly, you give power to the local ment in favour of day school education authorities to force all children in the in Wales, which has led to the formation district, whether they be Roman Cathoof the first Normal school ever estab-lics, or Nonconformists, or Jews, or whatlished there, and of many scores, if not ever they may be, into the denomihundreds, of day schools in various national schools, and thereby add largely parts of Wales. After that I had the to the income of those schools by their honour of being honorary secretary of pence. But this is not all. Compulsory the Voluntary School Society, which bye-laws may be expensive in the workestablished normal schools in London, ing, and the cost of this machinery is to and largely aided by means of grants of be defrayed, not from the income of the money the maintenance of voluntary schools that are to profit by them, but schools in various parts of the country. from the rates;-so that Dissenters and I hope that the House will excuse this Roman Catholics will be taxed for the little bit of egotism, as I wish it to be machinery that is to fill Church schools understood that I am not an objector to, by forcing their own children into and an obstructor of, education, but an them. And if any sturdy Dissenter active worker in that great cause. It or Roman Catholic upon grounds of would have been a great satisfaction to conscience refuses to send his child to me if a Bill had been introduced by the the school, you give power to the court Government which would have allowed of summary jurisdiction, which may be all of us, without distinction of sect the very clergyman who is the manager or party, on equal terms cordially to of the voluntary school, to fine him 58., co-operate in promoting the work of and if he persevere in his refusal, to take national education; but, unhappily, this his child away from home and send it to is a Bill for promoting, not national, but an industrial school until he is 14 or 16 sectarian education. The object of the years of age, and compel the parent to Bill is obviously, I may say avowedly, pay for his keep. Now, I object to this to discourage the formation of school Bill on various grounds. I object to it boards, and all that more liberal and first on account of its thoroughly unconunsectarian class of schools that spring stitutional character. Is it not one of from school boards, and to strengthen the principles of our administration that and extend to the utmost possible extent public money is not to be handed over the denominational schools. The speeches to be spent under the direction and at of the Vice President of the Council the discretion of persons who are not in (Viscount Sandon) and of the right hon. any way responsible to the nation? The Gentleman the Secretary for War (Mr. hon. Gentleman the Member for South Gathorne Hardy) left no doubt upon Devon (Sir Massey Lopes), in an able this point, and we may consider, there- speech on the Prisons Bill, made the fore, this was the dominant idea that remark that looking at the subject as a presided over the preparation of the question of principle, he thought that Bill. And then we must consider the local control ought to be exercised over denominational schools and the immense the expenditure of money raised by majority they are in. Out of 14,000 local rates. But here there is local taxparishes outside the boroughs only 1,749 ation in the form of the payment of the have school boards, leaving 12,000 or fees of the children by the guardians, more, where, if there be any schools at and in defraying the expenses of the all, they must be denominational schools. compulsory machinery, without any pre Mr. Richard |