(Witness: Post.) about is the "Detailed statement of expenditures in the Agricultural Department," Document No. 502? Those, as I understand you, are all bound in sheep? Mr. POST. They are all bound in sheep. The CHAIRMAN. And this statement of expenditures is distributed in accordance with the orders of whom-Congress? Mr. POST. Congress; it is a special designation that is made, and stands for all Congressional documents. The CHAIRMAN. Oh, yes; then those are distributed by virtue of the provisions of some existing statute? Mr. Posт. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. That provides where these various documents shall be sent? Mr. PosT. It provides how they shall be sent, but the Member of Congress is allowed to say where. The CHAIRMAN. You can not furnish us right now, offhand, I suppose, the law under which that is done, can you? Mr. PosT. No; I can not. That is one of the sections of the Revised Statutes. It provides for furnishing the documents to libraries designated by each Senator, Representative, and Delegate in Congress, and the number would be 482, plus the State and Territorial libraries, 50, which are especially provided for, as well as the libraries of nine Executive Departments, the Naval and Military acadamies, and American Antiquarian Society at Worcester, Mass., put on by special legislation, a total of 544 libraries; and only 502 books are provided to supply them. (Sections 501 and 502, Revised Statutes.) The CHAIRMAN. So those are not documents that go out on call? Mr. POST. No, sir; they are only the regular numbered Congressional documents bound in sheep. The CHAIRMAN. And under this statute, practically useless documents and others, it matters not what their value is, all go under the same designation? Mr. POST. They are all bound up under the same designation. The CHAIRMAN. Of course the Printing Department knows no distinction? Mr. Posт. None at all. The CHAIRMAN. The document may not be valuable, or may be of very great value; it does not make any difference what the fact may be in that respect the same number goes? Mr. PosT. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Provided the same designations are made under the statute? Mr. PosT. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. I find 53 under the subheading of "Smithsonian. Institute, foreign exchanges." Are those delivered to the Institute by virtue of the provisions of some general statute? Mr. PoST. Yes, sir; by virtue of the provision of the printing act of January 12, 1895. Section 54, as amended by joint resolution No. 16, approved March 2, 1901 (Stat. L., vol. 31, p. 1464). The CHAIRMAN. Now, here are 5 to the Senate library, 5 to the (Witness: Post.) House library, 9 to the Library of Congress, and 1 to the State Department. Those are all subject to those same considerations? Mr. POST. They come under the same law. The CHAIRMAN. They are distributed in the same way, under the same law? Mr. POST. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. So that the Printing Department has no discretion whatever as to the number that they print and bind? Mr. POST. None whatever; and I will say also that a document of that character, if it were not included among the numbered Congressional documents, would be furnished to designated depository libraries anyway, under provisions of existing statutes, but would not be furnished to the Smithsonian or the Senate or the House libraries, or the Library of Congress, or the State Department. It would go to these libraries because, by provision of the existing statute, the designated depository libraries receive one copy of every Government publication printed, whether it is a Congressional document or a departmental publication, while these other people do not receive anything except what is Congressional in its character. The CHAIRMAN. What is done with these books that are thus bound if they are not designated for distribution under the statute? Mr. POST. They are held, according to law, until they are designated. The CHAIRMAN. Can you give the committee any idea how many of the detailed statements of expenditures in the Agricultural Department are now so held? Mr. PosT. Sixteen. The CHAIRMAN. Sixteen for what year? Mr. PosT. Sixteen copies for every year. We only have on our list now 484 libraries. The CHAIRMAN. Then, with the exception of 16 copies, they are all distributed under that statute? Mr. POST. Yes; they are all distributed. The CHAIRMAN. So that there is practically no surplus on hand? Mr. POST. No, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Do you have any information at the Department as to the value placed upon a public document of that character by these various libraries? Mr. POST. Not by the libraries; but we have an indication from the sales. Our office is the sales office for the United States Government publications, and we can tell pretty well what publication is popular by the calls we have for it from outsiders. The CHAIRMAN. What call do you have for this? Mr. POST. We never have had a call. The CHAIRMAN. You never have had a call? Mr. PosT. No, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Have you ever had any call for any of the statements of expenditures from any of the Departments? Mr. POST. Never to my knowledge. I would not like to be sure about that. The CHAIRMAN. So that if the fact of calling or not calling was a demonstration of value, these would not have any value? Mr. PosT. None whatever. (Witness: Post.) The CHAIRMAN. In a general way, without going into details, what are the documents that you have the principal calls for? Mr. Posт. The bulletins of the Agricultural Department are the best-selling publications, and I think next to that the bulletins and reports of the Geological Survey. The CHAIRMAN. The bulletins of the Agricultural Department are not printed as House documents? Mr. POST. No; they are not. The CHAIRMAN. That is under another provision of the law; and are those of the Geological Survey? Those are not House documents either, are they? Mr. POST. Yes; they are Congressional documents. The CHAIRMAN. Do you have any calls for the reports of the Geological Survey? Mr. PosT. Oh, yes; they are sold extensively. The CHAIRMAN. As House documents? Mr. POST. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. This sum of 4,854, for instance, in case of the annual reports of the Agricultural Department (using that item as an illustration), is an aggregate of all of the numbers printed of that document prior to the adoption of the new regulations, is it not, or is it? Mr. POST. Yes, sir; that is the total number-the grand total. The CHAIRMAN. And whatever numbers you may have had on hand for sale are numbers that would come out of that aggregate? Mr. POST. They are represented by that number out there-100 [indicating]. In the case of anything printed as extra copies, when the division is made between the House and the Senate an equal division is made. What is left over comes to the superintendent of documents for distribution and sale.. In the case of a 2,000 and 1,000 allotment, he gets 100. In a case like this, of 14,000 and 7,000, he would get 235. It is only the left-over copies after equal distribution is made that come to us. The CHAIRMAN. In the case of the detailed statement of expenditures of the Agricultural Department there never have been any left over? Mr. PoST. Is that the second one there? The CHAIRMAN. Yes. Mr. POST. Nobody took any of them; they did not want them. They would have been entered here if they had been left over. There was no House and Senate distribution or print of them, you see-no extra copies ordered. The CHAIRMAN. Oh, yes. Mr. PoST. If they had been left over, they would have been entered here. Mr. SAMUEL. The usual number were printed? Mr. POST. Only the usual number; yes. The CHAIRMAN. The usual number printed of all these House documents, then, is only 1,854? Mr. POST. One thousand eight hundred and fifty-four. The CHAIRMAN. And if an additional number appears to have been printed in any portion of this schedule it is by virtue of some special legislation? Mr. PosT. Yes. (Witness: Post.) The CHAIRMAN. Relating to that particular document? Mr. PosT. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. And when only 1,854 are printed, they are all accounted for by a distribution under the subhead of "up number and bound?" Mr. POST. Yes-" up number and reserve." The CHAIRMAN. "Up-number and reserve "-yes. Mr. PosT. Yes. The CHAIRMAN. And in such a case they are left for sale by the Department-that is, by your office? Mr. PosT. No; none are left. They are all accounted for in here. Of course, there are over-copies which have gradually come in to us from these various designated depositories, you might say. These people return to us their over-copies for sale when they do not want them. That is where the great trouble lies in our division, because we are constantly being the recipients of donations of old things that we can not get rid of. The total number here of the usual number is too large, in my opinion. The CHAIRMAN. The total number of House documents is too large? Mr. POST. One thousand eight hundred and fifty-four is too manythat is, for practical use. The CHAIRMAN. By how much could that be reduced? Mr. POST. One thousand three hundred and fifty, I think, would give a liberal allowance to all of the designees, and still not leave such a surplus to be dumped onto the superintendent of documents when he has no use for them. Mr. SAMUEL. Can not that surplus be condemned? Mr. POST. We have to hold it there and give it storage room. There is no law that allows us to condemn it. The CHAIRMAN. How many public documents have you got stored under those circumstances? Mr. PosT. I should think something near 4,000,000; pretty near 3,500 tons of stuff. The CHAIRMAN. Of what value, taking into account the raw material value? Mr. POST. Three hundred thousand dollars, I should say, simply as an approximation, would be its book value; as to the value as waste paper I would judge one-tenth that sum a liberal estimate. The CHAIRMAN. Is that what it cost to print it? Mr. PosT. Oh, my, no. Mr. FLOOD. That is what the paper is worth? Mr. POST. That is what we could get out of it, I should think, if we should sell it for waste. The CHAIRMAN. How long has it been accumulating? Mr. POST. Ever since they have been printing. We have been gathering in, all the while, the accumulation from the various document rooms at the Capitol here. They are gathered from the document rooms and the folding rooms of the House and Senate, and from the storerooms of the various Executive Departments. The CHAIRMAN. They are those that have been undistributed? (Witness: Post.) The CHAIRMAN. Under the provisions of the law, and for which there appears to be no call from anybody? Mr. PosT. None whatever. The CHAIRMAN. And the paper alone would be of the value of something like $30,000. Mr. PosT. I should judge so. Of course, that is a guess. The CHAIRMAN. Yes; that is, roughly speaking. And about how much has it, in your judgment, cost the Government to print and publish that material, taking into account the cost of composition and printing, and the paper, roughly speaking? Mr. PosT. I do not believe I could give a very good idea. The CHAIRMAN. Could you approximate it within $100,000--just roughly? Mr. POST. Well, I should say that surely it was three or four times the figure given for the book value. The CHAIRMAN. Then this accumulation of material that seems to be of no value except a raw material value, a paper value, has cost the Government in the aggregate approximately, you would say, something like $1,250,000? Mr. POST. I should think so. The CHAIRMAN. And it is being held and stored there now by the Printing Department, under the provision of some law? Mr. POST. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. That is, the Printing Department has no power or authority under existing legislation to dispose of that accumulation? Mr. POST. Only by sale or distribution. The CHAIRMAN. Why do they not sell it? Mr. POST. Nobody will buy it. The CHAIRMAN. Could you not sell it for waste paper? Mr. POST. Well, that is not the intent of the law. We can only sell it as documents because the law provides that the superintendent of documents shall report annually the number of each and every document sold, and the price of it, making an itemized report, so that he could not sell it as waste paper because, then, he could not do that. The CHAIRMAN. No. You have no authority under the present statute to dispose of this vast accumulation of material? Mr. POST. None whatever. The CHAIRMAN. And a great deal of that material must consist of duplicates that is, reports of the same character from year to year? Mr. PoST. And there are hundreds of copies of the same report. The CHAIRMAN. Yes. Mr. Post. For instance, we have thousands of copies of Congressional directories that are not worth anything to anyone except for their historical value. The CHAIRMAN. And under the provisions of the law you can not sell them for waste paper? Mr. POST. No, sir. The CHAIRMAN. But you have to store them? Mr. Posт. We have to go to the expense of handling and storing them; yes. The CHAIRMAN. Where do you store this accumulation of more or less valuable material? |