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why these products give trouble in certain uses, and also to extend the uses of these various products. This all takes money, and we haven't enough money to do this as thoroughly and as vigorously as we would like. It is surprising to find how many problems come up from the users of turpentine and rosin, things that they have used for years and years, and yet every once in a while there is a little unexplained difficulty that they have with it. And they are presenting these things to us, and we cannot always tell them the answer. First, perhaps, it is a maker of dentists' supplies, and then again a maker of varnish, and so it goes. Another time it is a maker of a turpentine drum. What is the trouble? What is the difficulty here that we are encountering? And we are trying to solve these problems, difficulties, to extend the uses and explain flaws in the old uses, why these things have turned up, and to try to eliminate the difficulties that are coming about in some cases with these well known useful materials.

Mr. Gamble and other speakers have referred to the use of rosin in place of fossil gums. You know that the varnish enterprise has been able to use fossil gums. It is only comparatively recently that good varnishes have been made from rosin. Now, we can extend the market for rosin by determining what are the characteristics that are required for a first-class varnish, and try to give rosin those characteristics. I am sure that it can be done, it is the coming thing, and it can be done. One of the things that has been very dear to my heart for many years and one of the things that as soon as we are in funds I want to inaugurate is the combination of demonstration and research work. I want to see the Government have at some centralized, easily accessible locality, where local conditions are right,—a first-class demonstration still, in order to show the best methods for production and in the uses of turpentine and rosin. The Bureau of Chemistry is prepared now to introduce some, I think, decided improvements along that line, and to coöperate with the Forest Service and other governmental agencies, and with the turpentine operators and producers, in the full exploitation and running of such a still, a place where every item of the turpentine production can be clearly visualized and fully understood, from acquaintance in the very beginning, and from the very production in the beginning of the tree to the final making of the product. I hope we will be able to do that at an early date, but it is all going to depend on the funds to do it with. It will probably take $15,000 to even establish such an institution and $5,000 more to run it.

Now, I want to say a few words in conclusion about the enforcement of the Naval Stores Act. That work has been assigned to the Bureau of Chemistry. No appropriation has so far been made for carrying it out, but estimates have been made and we will soon be actively engaged in enforcing that work. You know what we have done in the way of providing rosin standards and that these have been adopted by an Act and made Federal grades. Our regulations under the Act are now in the hands of the printer, to be available to you in a short time. I am confident that we will be able to make you some money by a vigorous enforcement of this act. We are going to decrease the supply of so-called turpentine I think very materially, and increase the price of turpentine, because there is a lot of adulterated stuff that is being sold in this country, and it is being sold generally where it is very, very difficult to reach. That is, it is sold to you and me over the counter of the small store, especially the country store where we have got no opportunity of finding out the source, whether it is pure turpentine or heavily adulterated turpentine, and the law is going to enable us to get at that, and I think very much good will result to the producing industry, to the dealing industry, and to the final user of the turpentine who pays the bill, that is, the householder.

Mr. O. H. L. Wernicke, Pensacola Tar & Turpentine Co., Gull Point, Fla.: I have been quite close to the Southern turpentine and rosin producers for thirty years, and am somewhat posted as to your local conditions and your viewpoint; I have also been a consumer of those products to a greater or less extent. Dr. Veitch has told us about the work the Government is doing and also mentioned the Naval Stores bill. I hope the naval stores business will get some benefit from the bill. We will take turpentine as an example, where it is used for a thinner or dryer, if we were dependent on turpentine alone we would have to close up most of our finishing materials industry, because there is not enough turpentine to go around. We only make about 500,000 barrels of turpentine and much of it is exported, other thinners and dryers are extensively used and

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this must be so regardless of sentiment. It has not been popular to talk of mixing turpentine with other dryers. Petroleum spirits are acceptable to the trade and if naval stores people would encourage the use of turpentine and petroleum compounds, it would surely increase the popularity of turpentine and extend its use, and probably stabilize the price. I have no quarrel with the United States in regulating things, if we put 25 barrels of turpentine and 25 barrels of petroleum spirits together making a product that is useful to somebody else, we should be willing to label it properly so there could be no deception, but the present bill prohibits the use of the word turpentine in combination with any other chemical, whether the result is good, bad or indifferent, and the results of it is that wood turpentines have declined and have to be sold at a heavy sacrifice since that bill was enacted. Those are the facts, gentlemen, and they do not help the general turpentine situation. The purpose of the bill is all right but its effect is not what was anticipated; its administration will be a very difficult matter. I do not believe men like Dr. Veitch who are charged with the administrative features of the bill would knowingly do a harmful thing, but they can not know all the conditions that we have to face in this industry.

There can be no overproduction of turpentine except as a result of under-consumption. Turpentine is a small part of the total of paint varnish material, particularly in the line of solvents and dryers. There is nobody in this hall who can tell why turpentine rather than petroleum or coal tar dryers and thinners should be used. They are all good solvents. Of course turpentine is used and generally preferred but there is no use deluding ourselves. If a varnish manufacturer can get along with ninety per cent of other solvents and dryers he can use them altogether, that is nobody's fault, but it is a fact that we have got to face. If we dry up every source of turpentine in the United States, it will not stop the making of finishing materials. The makers of automobiles, vehicles, and part of our railroad cars use no turpentine. Ford doesn't use turpentine. Studebaker, who used to buy it to finish his wagons does not use turpentine, they all go right on making more vehicles and cars than ever and are getting along without turpentine. But there are other uses for

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turpentine that have not been developed and it is part of the work of Dr. Veitch and his department to discover in what form it can best be used.

There is another great waste going on in our commercial activities with reference to color. If a man makes black or brown varnish, why in the world does he need water white turpentine? Be it government standard or any other standard, what does he want with water white turpentine?

You may depend on the technical industries to call for the kind of color that suits their particular product, there is no use in suggesting to them that everything must be water white. The color adds nothing to the quality.

The United States government specifies water white turpentine to paint the bottom of a ship and it must distill 90 per cent off at 170°C. What has that got to do with the bottom of a ship? Absolutely nothing whatever, except to retard the use of turpentine.

I think the turpentine producers ought to get together and make some experiments of their own; they could employ men like Mr. Pace and Mr. Hodges who spoke to us, and send them to Washington with Dr. Veitch to work out these problems from a practical point of view. They could say to him, “We have 50,000 barrels of excess turpentine, and as many barrels of rosin that we must get rid of and we want you to tell us in what form we can sell it to somebody.” We must broaden our consumption rather than restrict our production.

Mr. Gamble: Why did Studebaker quit using turpentine?

Mr. Wernicke: Studebaker found that if everybody used turpentine they could get it only thirty days in the year, and the rest of the time would have to use something else. So when they found that they couldn't get turpentine all the time, they sought and found a substitute. There was a time when the sleeping car people used turpentine. There was a time when the railroads were large users of turpentine. That was before the days of development of petroleum spirits in varnish and paint mixing. The amount of thinning material then used was relatively small, and turpentine was relatively cheap. It was economical to use.

Take lime, everybody thought it was a simple product since the time of King Tut until the lime association was organized and took a fellowship in the Mellon Institute of the University of Pittsburg. Speaking of lime, I want to tell you that we are finding it possible now to use rosin in varnish and paint because we learned something new about lime in connection with it. Not so long ago rosin varnish was unpopular but now the very best grades require the use of rosin. We did not know how to use Chinese wood oil, but we discovered that by using a lime combination we could dispense with linseed oil. We now make a fair varnish from cheap materials, which it was thought could only be produced from genuine linseed oil, costly gums and pure turpentine.

At one time we thought if we bought a hundred million dollars worth of automobiles it would bankrupt this country. I heard a wise banker say so. At this time we are spending for automobiles and accessories something like four or five billion dollars a year and we have just recently spent thirty billion dollars on the World War and it hasn't killed us. We have more automobiles now than we had before the war and we are buying them now at a greater rate than ever before. I mention that to show that it is an artificially developed industry. There is no normal demand; nobody had ever thought they needed such a thing as an automobile. They didn't even know that they wanted them until they had been demonstrated and advertised. In earlier days the horse and the wagon carried our produce to market, but today we couldn't keep house without autos and radio. All you have to do is to make more people want naval stores, rosin and turpentine in the particular branches where its use will answer the purpose a little better than something else, and it need not be cheap.

The big soap people buy your rosin at about two cents per pound, but you buy their soap at 25c per bar. What are the rosin producers doing to protect conditions in that field? Absolutely nothing in an organized way. It would not be difficult to expand the uses of rosin so that instead of there being a surplus there would be a demand for more.

Mr.J. E. Lockwood, Hercules Powder Company, Wilmington, Del.. I am very much impressed with what has been said today. I believe in the economical utilization of the pine trees, and the talks we have had today regarding the conservation of the pine trees or forests in this country. I believe the economy

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